Subject: I Need to Make a Confession...

Posted on: August 05 2007 @ 10:10 PM
By: ExtermaKnitter

Content:

I have to come clean to all you other Who fans. I have talked about this with others, but it is time for me to say it here...in public.



I HATE the character of Captain Jack...THERE...I have said it. It is out and done. sigh



I don't know why, from the moment he hit the screen, I hated him.



I think I need an intervention to discover WHY I hate the character...I know it isn't rational.



Everyone is excitedly talking about Torchwood debuting on US TV and I don't even want to watch it because Capt. Jack will be there.



I told you it isn't rational...help me get past the hate!



[Is there anyone else out there like me?]



Replies:

I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 06 2007 @ 07:12 AM
By: daveac

Content:

[QUOTE BY= ExtermaKnitter] I have to come clean to all you other Who fans. I have talked about this with others, but it is time for me to say it here...in public.

I HATE the character of Captain Jack...THERE...I have said it. It is out and done. sigh

I don't know why, from the moment he hit the screen, I hated him.

I think I need an intervention to discover WHY I hate the character...I know it isn't rational.

Everyone is excitedly talking about Torchwood debuting on US TV and I don't even want to watch it because Capt. Jack will be there.

I told you it isn't rational...help me get past the hate!

[Is there anyone else out there like me?][/QUOTE]

Well if it's any help - Torchwood Jack is a 'different' Jack.

Many people who liked Jack in Doctor Who didn't like the 'new' Jack with responsiblities.

So I'd watch if I were you - there's a lot to recommend the show.

My fav episode is Episode 10 'Out of Time'

Cheers, daveac


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 06 2007 @ 07:24 AM
By: DJ

Content:

I love Captain Jack in DW but he really makes my skin itch in 'Torchwood', I don't know why, he's cockier, thinks everyone finds him sexy and therefore wants to... you know Wink I suppose because Torchwood is for an older audience they can get away with it.

I do love him in DW though, pining after The Doctor lol!

I guess, to be honest I'd rather have CJ than scary monkey Owen!


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 06 2007 @ 08:22 AM
By: LanaiaD

Content:

What!! You don't like the Poor Man's Tom Cruise!!!! Wink

What exactly is it about the character that you dislike though? Is it the character traits or the way Barrowman plays it? I have to admit I thought you'd love the character so I was surprised you didn't like him.


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 06 2007 @ 08:27 AM
By: DJ

Content:

Lol!

To be honest, I like John Barrowman and CJ on DW, but for some reason I don't like him [CJ] in Torchwood, I don't hate him and I will watch the next series,I don't know, but there is something I dislike. Frown


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 06 2007 @ 08:54 AM
By: daveac

Content:

[QUOTE BY= DJ] Lol!

To be honest, I like John Barrowman and CJ on DW, but for some reason I don't like him [CJ] in Torchwood, I don't hate him and I will watch the next series,I don't know, but there is something I dislike. Frown [/QUOTE]

In Torchwood he does seem to 'stage act' a bit - the extra movements like when he's pointing a gun - it shouts 'here I'm acting pointing a gun at someone and I really might shoot' - rather than TV acting with minimum movement 'It's all done with the eyes dear!'

If he hamed it up a bit more he'd be a shue-in for young Captain Kirk in Star Trek 11 Big Grin

Cheers, daveac


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 06 2007 @ 09:28 AM
By: DJ

Content:

I think that might be it Big Grin But don't you think John Barrowman is like that anyway? Very OTT?


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 11 2007 @ 09:56 PM
By: ExtermaKnitter

Content:

Well, I could swear I had replied to this and I don't see the reply?

I have come to some realizations after watching the "The Empty Child" and "The Doctor Dances" again and talking to my Who bud, Lanaia.

I know part of it was I felt like the Capt Jack character was a "token" American (and I am American) placed in my British TV show. I was afraid it was just a ploy to get American viewers...I was bummed. I don't really know if that is really the case, and it probably isn't.

I also discovered in my talks with Lanaia...that the character of Capt. Jack reminds me of a complete giggelo player I knew in college. He was my friend's "boyfriend" (he was MANY girl's boyfriend-at the same time) and he totally disgusted me. I could never get why people weren't seeing through his fake, charming guy facade.

I found this to be the case with Capt. Jack...I didn't get why ROse would even like him? But then I am probably putting myself in her place. I would have been (and was) totally turned off, immediately, by the character.

I am glad I have come to an understanding of why I dislike the character so much. And it is just the character...I thought John was pretty funny on the commentary...


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 11 2007 @ 11:43 PM
By: Tawm

Content:

I've always been sort of "meh" about Jack.

In Series One, he was a bland and unimaginative stock character: the charming, flirtatious rogue. I didn't think he had good chemistry with the other characters.

In Torchwood, he's completely different, but he's still a bland and unimaginative stock character: The cop who plays dirty and has a tortured, mysterious past. I still didn't think he had great chemistry with the others.

However, in Series Three I began to like his character because it was a melding of the two different stock characters to come up with something more refreshingly different, and I thought he had fantastic chemistry with the Tenth Doctor and Martha.

One of the things that's always bothered me is that he's clearly meant to be American but he says things that Americans don't typically say, such as "lift," "car park," or "you lot."

In the finale of series three we found out a secret about Jack that (I think) makes him a more interesting character, and I hope we get to see that revelation reflected in the direction the character is taken in the next series of Torchwood.


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 12 2007 @ 12:13 AM
By: DarthSkeptical

Content:

[QUOTE BY= Tawm] One of the things that's always bothered me is that he's clearly meant to be American but he says things that Americans don't typically say, such as "lift," "car park," or "you lot."[/QUOTE]See, this doesn't bother me with Jack, but it did with Peri. Peri was a thoroughly American girl on a brief visit to Europe (not Britain, the continent). She would have had minimal cause to pick up Britishisms like this, and I found them jarring. But with Jack I accept it because he's establshed to have had, what, a century of British contact? He might not lose his American accent (alhtough, looking at the reverse case of Richard Dawson, it's not impossible), but he would certainly use nouns that made his life easier. It's just a thing ya do. If I'm in England, and I need to go to the bathroom, I'm askin' where the loo is, not getting into a semantic squabble over it.


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 12 2007 @ 12:41 PM
By: LanaiaD

Content:

I think thats the writer's fault more so than characterization about the "Britishisms" by American characters. This drove me crazy on the Dalek two parter this year in season 3. The American characters including the young kid from the South (I forget which Southern state) saying lift instead of elevator. As someone who's not seen a lot of the world how would he know that. Then I think Martha who is of course British uses the word elevator. I was like what is the writer doing here. That's sloppy.


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 12 2007 @ 03:25 PM
By: DarthSkeptical

Content:

[QUOTE BY= LanaiaD] I think thats the writer's fault more so than characterization about the "Britishisms" by American characters. This drove me crazy on the Dalek two parter this year in season 3. The American characters including the young kid from the South (I forget which Southern state) saying lift instead of elevator. As someone who's not seen a lot of the world how would he know that. Then I think Martha who is of course British uses the word elevator. I was like what is the writer doing here. That's sloppy.[/QUOTE]See, I accepted this as an intelligent bit of writing.

The kid was from Tennessee, apparently Appalachia. The presumption I made was that he had never seen a proper passenger elevator before. He was, after all, freshly arrived in New York, and quite possibly had not stepped into one of the "fancy" buildings that had elevators. Elevators came to wide "city" use only after 1880, because that's when they first became electrified, and thus much more reliable and efficient. Tennessee was one of the most electricity-poor parts of the country until well after the setting of the story. HIs most likely encounter with the concept would've therefore been mine lifts (a name they still have even to this day), and grain elevators. Of the two of these, the mine lift is clearly more like a passenger elevator.

So it makes sense to me that as he groped around for the right word, he would've settled on "lift". And Martha's use of "elevator" is a clear attempt for our cosmopolitan young heroine to try to "fit in".


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 13 2007 @ 07:09 AM
By: Smitty

Content:

^Totally off topic but that reminds me of something I saw a few years back.

It was on The Late Show with David Letterman and he had Kenneth Branagh on.

At the time he was promoting the film, The Gingerbread Man directed by the late Robert Altman and based on a story/novel by John Grisham. A legal thriller set in the American southeast.

Brangah played the lead, a slick Atlanta lawyer who was being blackmailed etc.

He recalls where they were filming a scene where his character's children were I think kidnapped and was dumped in a lake so he'd been lead to believe by the psycho menacing him. So he's doing the scene where's he's frantic and his kids are trapped in the trunk of the car.
In a thick Georgia accent Branagh's screaming, "My kids, my kids, they're in the boot, the boot!" Boot is British slang for a car trunk etc.

I went a long way for a little bit... Oops!

-cs™


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 13 2007 @ 08:36 AM
By: LanaiaD

Content:

[QUOTE BY= DarthSkeptical] [QUOTE BY= LanaiaD] I think thats the writer's fault more so than characterization about the "Britishisms" by American characters. This drove me crazy on the Dalek two parter this year in season 3. The American characters including the young kid from the South (I forget which Southern state) saying lift instead of elevator. As someone who's not seen a lot of the world how would he know that. Then I think Martha who is of course British uses the word elevator. I was like what is the writer doing here. That's sloppy.[/QUOTE]See, I accepted this as an intelligent bit of writing.

The kid was from Tennessee, apparently Appalachia. The presumption I made was that he had never seen a proper passenger elevator before. He was, after all, freshly arrived in New York, and quite possibly had not stepped into one of the "fancy" buildings that had elevators. Elevators came to wide "city" use only after 1880, because that's when they first became electrified, and thus much more reliable and efficient. Tennessee was one of the most electricity-poor parts of the country until well after the setting of the story. HIs most likely encounter with the concept would've therefore been mine lifts (a name they still have even to this day), and grain elevators. Of the two of these, the mine lift is clearly more like a passenger elevator.

So it makes sense to me that as he groped around for the right word, he would've settled on "lift". And Martha's use of "elevator" is a clear attempt for our cosmopolitan young heroine to try to "fit in". [/QUOTE]

See that makes sense with an explanation, but the average viewer isnt as smart as you (because in reading a number of your posts you seem pretty brilliant) and so the viewer isn't going to know that. Its like, if you have to explain the joke, it isn't funny.


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 14 2007 @ 06:07 PM
By: mad4plaid

Content:

I have to say it wasn't Jack using the British terms that got me: when I'm in the UK, I call the elevator a lift, a truck a lorry, etc, and well, I have friends in Boston who call a parking lot a car park (or "cah pahk") so that wasn't a problem. It just eases conversation, at least in my opinion - sort of when in Rome....

What bothered me was in his first few lines of ep. 1 of Torchwood. "EASTrogen" instead of "ESTrogen." I guess I'm just going with, if you are playing American, use a standard American pronounciation. Whether you are going with a Southerner, a New Yorker, or the non-regional sounding Ohio Valley dialect (which is what I'd say John has in real life): just use something standard. I don't know... it's kind of like hearing someone playing Highland Scottish and having them say "lake" instead of "loch." It's off putting.


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 14 2007 @ 09:28 PM
By: DarthSkeptical

Content:

Again, though, I think Jack's choice of pronunciation makes sense given how long he's been with the Brits. I pronounce all sorts of words completely wrong for my dialectical home, and I'm not terribly consistent about it. "Leisure", "basil", and a lot of words ending in -tory are ones for which I'll tend to choose the dominant British pronunciation.

And I mean tend. There are times where I'll flip back and forth within the space of a single conversation. A good example you guys can actually hear is the proper name, "Hartnell". I've always alternated between stressing the second syllable (which would be the American inclination) and the first (which is the "proper" British variant).

The more isolated a character is, the more standardized his or her accent should be. More cosmopolitan characters should have a mixture of pronunciations.

But laying all that to one side, I think the fact of the matter is that Barrowman probably didn't have to think about it very long to figure out how to say it. He probably said, "How am I pronouncing this word now?", realized he'd adopted the British way, and just went ahead with it. It's realistic, in other words, because that's what he does. Why shouldn't they do the same, since he and Jack share a similar Anglo-American background?

Now, of course, the real question is why Jack is American in settings where he doesn't need to be? The American thing was originally just a cover for that one job. Why—and really how—did he keep a 21st century American accent for a hundred years of British life after he transported to the 19th century from the yeat 100,000? Why, indeed, did he retain the accent when he went to join the TARDIS crew? So far, the only clue as to the personae is the episode "Captain Jack Harkness". And that, coming well after his hundred years of wandering, only muddies the waters more. He kept attached to a cover that really only made sense for one of those hundred or so winters? What sense does that make?

See the thing that bugs me about Jack's accent is not how he pronounces certain words, but why he, outside of the winter of the Blitz, has an American accent at all. The character, I think, would be far more interesting if we could answer that question. And, indeed, that might be the utility of his last line in "Last of the Time Lords".


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 15 2007 @ 12:22 AM
By: Tawm

Content:

[QUOTE BY= DarthSkeptical]Now, of course, the real question is why Jack is American in settings where he doesn't need to be? The American thing was originally just a cover for that one job. Why—and really how—did he keep a 21st century American accent for a hundred years of British life after he transported to the 19th century from the yeat 100,000? Why, indeed, did he retain the accent when he went to join the TARDIS crew? So far, the only clue as to the personae is the episode "Captain Jack Harkness". And that, coming well after his hundred years of wandering, only muddies the waters more. He kept attached to a cover that really only made sense for one of those hundred or so winters? What sense does that make? [/QUOTE]

A 21-st century American accent may well be his natural accent. Accents of the late-20th and early-21st century will persevere in ways that no other accent ever has before, owing to the fact that they will be extremely well-recorded. Because of this, they will not be forgotten and discarded very easily. I find it very plausible that a backwater village in y5k might speak y2K American English.

Even if this explanation doesn't work for you, the 21st century (being "where it all changes") would likely be a popular destination for Time Agents, and so it makes sense that the Time Agency would expect their Agents to speak at least one contemporary dialect of English. Why not American?

And perhaps Jack doesn't continue speaking American English after joining the TARDIS. He may simply be speaking his native tongue and the TARDIS could be translating it, letting Rose and the Doctor hear American English because that's the dialect they expect to hear from him.

Jack's American dialect does not really pose any problem with me.


I Need to Make a Confession

Posted on: August 20 2007 @ 05:02 PM
By: mad4plaid

Content:

POSSIBLE SPOILERS IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE WHOLE OF SERIES THREE!!!!!









[QUOTE BY= DarthSkeptical] See the thing that bugs me about Jack's accent is not how he pronounces certain words, but why he, outside of the winter of the Blitz, has an American accent at all. The character, I think, would be far more interesting if we could answer that question. And, indeed, that might be the utility of his last line in "Last of the Time Lords". [/QUOTE]

I never thought of that. and of course, when we meet ..... him earlier in the series, as we found out we did in his last line in "LotTL" he has a British accent. So, 100 years in the Empire don't allow him to lose the American accent, but multiple millenia do.


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