Subject: [Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 04 2008 @ 05:11 PM
By: daveac

Content:



There will be Spoilers



Get out your hankies!



This is a very strong episode and a real tear jerker!



Cheers, daveac



Replies:

[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 04 2008 @ 05:19 PM
By: Tardis-Knight

Content:

Brilliant!

& yep, you're right Dave!! I'm far too much of a macho brute to ever cry whilst watching Torchwood; but Tosh's (and Owen's) scenes are the closest I'm likely to get.

"I hope I did good?" - you did Toshiko; believe.

Simply wonderful.

Bravo.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 04 2008 @ 05:32 PM
By: daveac

Content:

[QUOTE BY= Tardis-Knight] Brilliant!

& yep, you're right Dave!! I'm far too much of a macho brute to ever cry whilst watching Torchwood; but Tosh's (and Owen's) scenes are the closest I'm likely to get.

"I hope I did good?" - you did Toshiko; believe.

Simply wonderful.

Bravo. [/QUOTE]

I loved it to - but needed a stiff drink afterwards as I got some dirt in my eye Wink

Here's something to read after you have watched the episode:-

Naoko Mori talking on Digital Spy

Cheers, daveac


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 04 2008 @ 06:10 PM
By: tarashnat

Content:

[QUOTE BY= daveac] I got some dirt in my eye Wink [/QUOTE]

You need to stop dusting while watching television... Wink


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 04 2008 @ 08:40 PM
By: cybercolin

Content:

Wasn't as distinctly avearge as the rest of the series, so I suppose thats good! I actually had a feeling someone was going to be killed off, hopefully they can move forward and improve on this series, which imho wasn't a patch on S1.

Didn't understand Gray's motives, seemed a bit childish to me. If someone had made me lose my brother's grip and impriosned me, I would want revenge on the one's who had chased me, not my brother.

They made sure they got the Doctor Who (Aliens of London) refernce in, even though it was poor. Don't know what having the 'Death' figures (that Ianto and Tosh shot) was all about.

Captain John made like a Frenchman and changed sides, a good character as he is, I hope we don't see him for a while. Bring back Bilis, now there is a proper villian and the BEST character to ever appear in Torchwood.

4/5 for Exit Wounds

2/5 for the series, sorry I feel really let down!


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 04 2008 @ 09:47 PM
By: merlin_mccarley

Content:


2 points.

1. We now know (Cannonically speaking) that Tosh was the same character in the... As she put it "Space Pig" episode.

2. Why was Jack worried about aging in "The Last of the Timelords"? I have not sat down to the maths yet but Sheesh!


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 02:52 AM
By: tarashnat

Content:

[QUOTE BY= merlin_mccarley]
1. We now know (Cannonically speaking) that Tosh was the same character in the... As she put it "Space Pig" episode.[/QUOTE]
This has been known for a long time.

[QUOTE BY= merlin_mccarley]
2. Why was Jack worried about aging in "The Last of the Timelords"? I have not sat down to the maths yet but Sheesh![/QUOTE]
I believe that this was a subtle way to link two apparently different characters.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 04:23 AM
By: DarthSkeptical

Content:

Not having been spoiled at all prior to watching it, I have to say that truly rocked my world. I was absolutely riveted to my screen. There were the odd moments that made no sense whatsoever — well, okay, the one moment when the guys with scythes showed up — but even that at least had comedic value. (Though it was rather an Indiana Jones-esque cliché.)

I have to admit that this episode did a superb job of making sense of the series. I no longer see Torchwood as mere "acceptable filler" between seasons of Doctor Who. Given that the parent program is going to make us wait quite a while for Series 5, I'm glad that they've made this into a show that genuinely grabs my attention on its own merits. On the strength of this night, 2009 could well be that "magic" season that new concepts need to truly "emerge".

It's simply impossible to compare this series finale with last year's; this was better by almost every single measure. The only thing that really bugged me was the actor playing Gray. It was a good effort, but he didn't quite pitch it right, somehow. The character of Gray, by contrast, had a lot to recommend him. HIs motivations were easily understood — he's insane, but for good cause. He's the Master, for adults. It's a shame that the actor didn't bring more weight and nuance to the part, because the lines could have supported it.

Maybe in time, and with enough viewings, the Skeptic in me will return, but I'm bound to say for now that as narrative arcs go, that's the best effort we've gotten out of the Whoniverse since RTD took it over. Not quite sure what that's saying, though. Since Sarah Jane and Doctor Who are deliberately "continuity-light", it's in some senses unfair to judge the success of their seasons by the strength of their final episodes. Maybe it's just that Torchwood has finally lived up to its "adult" label by giving us a series-long story that rewards the viewer for paying attention — quite unlike last year.

While the tragic ending was clearly the emotional high point, what I really responded to was the fact that it echoed the theme of "Last of the Time Lords". It made me choke up to hear Jack forgiving his brother, because that literally came straight from the Doctor. If Sarah Jane Adventures is really about Sarah Jane carrying on, essentially, the tradition of the fun, adventuring Doctor, Torchwood seems now firmly fixed on portraying Jack as the steward of the Doctor's deeper, more serious attributes. I really dig that the three shows have clear, interesting territorial boundaries now.

The onus is clearly on Doctor Who now. After two stellar seasons of the spin-offs, can it maintain its status as the best thing coming out of Upper Boat? Given the lackluster Christmas performance, and the disdain with which people other than myself view some of the episodes of Series 3, it's more than a fair question.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 11:57 AM
By: Louis

Content:

[QUOTE BY= cybercolin] ..

Didn't understand Gray's motives, seemed a bit childish to me. If someone had made me lose my brother's grip and impriosned me, I would want revenge on the one's who had chased me, not my brother.

...[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I felt the same way. I sort of had to try to write it up as that he became twisted and demented from being tortured by the "creatures" and that made him the way he was... it was just hard to believe it as it was presented in this story.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 12:03 PM
By: Louis

Content:

[QUOTE BY= DarthSkeptical] ...The only thing that really bugged me was the actor playing Gray. It was a good effort, but he didn't quite pitch it right, somehow. The character of Gray, by contrast, had a lot to recommend him. HIs motivations were easily understood — he's insane, but for good cause. He's the Master, for adults. It's a shame that the actor didn't bring more weight and nuance to the part, because the lines could have supported it.

...[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I agree. This is what I meant from my comments in my previous posting here. He has become twisted, but it just wasn't sold as such really from what we seen in this story. I am not sure if it is solely due to the actor's interpretation of the character, or the script itself. Something was lacking to sell the audience completely.

Cheers,
Louis


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 02:00 PM
By: merlin_mccarley

Content:

[QUOTE BY= tarashnat] [QUOTE BY= merlin_mccarley]
1. We now know (Cannonically speaking) that Tosh was the same character in the... As she put it "Space Pig" episode.[/QUOTE]
This has been known for a long time.

[/QUOTE]

I agree, but it still seems to be a point of contention between some. Wink


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 03:10 PM
By: Louis

Content:

[QUOTE BY= merlin_mccarley] [QUOTE BY= tarashnat] [QUOTE BY= merlin_mccarley]
1. We now know (Cannonically speaking) that Tosh was the same character in the... As she put it "Space Pig" episode.[/QUOTE]
This has been known for a long time.

[/QUOTE]

I agree, but it still seems to be a point of contention between some. Wink [/QUOTE]

Did I miss something? Was there a mention of the space pig in this episode? I may need to re-watch it. I know I did get interrupted with a phone call while I was watching it. I might of missed something small at that point.

Cheers,
Louis


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 03:14 PM
By: merlin_mccarley

Content:

[QUOTE BY= Louis] [QUOTE BY= merlin_mccarley] [QUOTE BY= tarashnat] [QUOTE BY= merlin_mccarley]
1. We now know (Cannonically speaking) that Tosh was the same character in the... As she put it "Space Pig" episode.[/QUOTE]
This has been known for a long time.

[/QUOTE]

I agree, but it still seems to be a point of contention between some. Wink [/QUOTE]

Did I miss something? Was there a mention of the space pig in this episode? I may need to re-watch it. I know I did get interrupted with a phone call while I was watching it. I might of missed something small at that point.

Cheers,
Louis[/QUOTE]

It's there during the scene when they are fixing the reactor. Tosh had to pretend to be a medic during Owen's 2nd. week in Torchwood beacuse he was hung over.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 03:19 PM
By: DarthSkeptical

Content:

[QUOTE BY= merlin_mccarley] [QUOTE BY= tarashnat]
1. We now know (Cannonically speaking) that Tosh was the same character in the... As she put it "Space Pig" episode.[/QUOTE]
This has been known for a long time.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, no, we haven't known this canonically until this episode. It was never stated onscreen that they were the same character, nor was it ever hinted that they might have been. Even the name "Doctor Sato" derives entirely from the credits to "Aliens of London".

In fact, I've always kind of found it odd, since she met the Doctor, and had access to everything known about him, that she never had a conversation with Jack about him. One would have thought the perfect opportunity would have been immediately after "End of Days". She should've been the one to go over all the Hub's internal security cameras and local external CCTV cameras with a fine tooth comb. She's a bright girl; she should have been able to put two and two together.

So when there was no connection made, despite Jack's fairly liberal use of the word, "Doctor", I kinda took that as narrative argument that there were two Satos. This deathbed revelation is thus very much a new thing.

In truth, it probably raises more questions than it answers, though. Here are a few: if she was there for Torchwood, wouldn't she have had to make some sort of after-action report? If so, wouldn't she have had to mention the Doctor in that report? Wouldn't that have made her remember the Doctor even more? Wouldn't Jack have given some sort of reaction to the name "the Doctor", especially since the report would have narrated an event that would have surely described "the right Doctor"? In short, the explanation given in this episode does a lot of good. It adequately explains why Tosh was an apparent MD in Doctor Who, but an IT expert in Torchwood. It doesn't, however, explain how she and Jack never connected over the Doctor, given that she knows what he looks like, would've had (at the very least) access to Clive's website, and would've recognized the sound that concludes "End of Days". So it was a nice touch, but it only answered one of the two mysteries arising from "Doctor Sato" in "Aliens of London".


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 03:55 PM
By: silvanthalas

Content:

No tears for me, but I was satisfied by the episode as a whole. If TW isn't renewed for season 3, I'll be disappointed, but I'll be able to accept it with this ending.

[QUOTE BY= cybercolin]They made sure they got the Doctor Who (Aliens of London) refernce in, even though it was poor.[/QUOTE]

Hey, I was laughing out loud over that. I thought it was brilliant to just have it explained as a one-liner.

[QUOTE BY= cybercolin]2/5 for the series, sorry I feel really let down![/QUOTE]

My wife (yes, she has watched a few more episodes after she 'gave up') was really disappointed by this entire season, and didn't like this finale at all.

Me? I thought it was 10x better than series 1.


And was I the only one who was scratching their head over the way some of Gray's lines were delivered? At first I was just thinking that they had to do some rerecording of his lines, but then as you listen, at times those lines sounded more and more like Barrowman. Ok, the voice gives a real brotherly quality to the actor who plays Gray, but I was getting the impression that it was Barrowman himself dubbing lines over the actor's speaking. It was really off-putting the handful of times I caught it.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 05:09 PM
By: President Nice

Content:

[QUOTE BY= silvanthalas]And was I the only one who was scratching their head over the way some of Gray's lines were delivered? At first I was just thinking that they had to do some rerecording of his lines, but then as you listen, at times those lines sounded more and more like Barrowman. Ok, the voice gives a real brotherly quality to the actor who plays Gray, but I was getting the impression that it was Barrowman himself dubbing lines over the actor's speaking.[/QUOTE]

I noticed that too, at first I wondered if John Barrowman had a brother who they'd cast but then Gray started to waver in accent from Mid-Atlantic to Australian to English.
Overall I enjoyed the episode, not a patch on Fragments, but the deaths were really well handled. I really didn't like James Marsters (never have) and am annoyed that once again the series ends with two episodes that are clearly superior to the rest of the season.
Next year I'm going to wait and watch the last episodes on their own.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 06:16 PM
By: rocko

Content:

My big question is- Did Jack KNOW that a future version of himself was in the freezer all this time, waiting to wake up at just the right moment??


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 08:12 PM
By: daveac

Content:

[QUOTE BY= rocko] My big question is- Did Jack KNOW that a future version of himself was in the freezer all this time, waiting to wake up at just the right moment?? [/QUOTE]

No - because subjectively - his life like ours is linear.

Cheers, daveac


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 08:47 PM
By: Louis

Content:

[QUOTE BY= daveac] [QUOTE BY= rocko] My big question is- Did Jack KNOW that a future version of himself was in the freezer all this time, waiting to wake up at just the right moment?? [/QUOTE]

No - because subjectively - his life like ours is linear.

Cheers, daveac[/QUOTE]

Yes, agreed, but you would think as the head of this branch of Torchwood, he would have some idea of just what is being stored in the freezers there. At least one would think he would have a good idea of what is there (baring the Cyberwoman from the first series I guess).

I supposed he would have worked it out somehow to mask it from his future self... err.. really his past self in the future from discovering himself in there somehow.

Cheers,
Louis


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 05 2008 @ 10:42 PM
By: sarahbot

Content:

[QUOTE BY= Louis]Yes, agreed, but you would think as the head of this branch of Torchwood, he would have some idea of just what is being stored in the freezers there. At least one would think he would have a good idea of what is there (baring the Cyberwoman from the first series I guess).[/QUOTE]

If you recall, in "To The Last Man" he didn't know that Tosh was mentioned in the file at all to the last minute. Also, given the fact alone that they packed away everything of Tosh and Owen's, Torchwood must have an absolutely enormous storage space given the number of dead employees they've gathered over the years. Besides, Jack seems very committed to Torchwood; if someone had told him "really, don't look in this case" I think he'd have listened to them. As opposed to the Doctor, who would've gotten a peek in as soon as possible. Laughing Out Loud


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 06 2008 @ 03:59 AM
By: DarthSkeptical

Content:

Another point in this regard is that, really, Jack's not been in charge of Torchwood 3 all that long, and throughout most of that time his concern has been with trying to reform it. (Or sleep with its various officers.) Not sure he's really had the time to go around and verify the contents of every single cupboard in the joint.

The easier thing to believe is just that the early-20th century Torchwood simply gave a false inventory of the cabinet and nobody peeked (or if someone did, it was a Torchwood boss other than Jack, who would've likely preserved the secret.)


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 06 2008 @ 12:18 PM
By: mad4plaid

Content:

I teared up, but no gushers for me. I'm glad Owen is wrapped up and gone (still, what an icky way to go). I liked that Tosh was able to calm him down, that showed a bit of a connection between the two. I wish that Tosh had let Owen know she was going to die as well. Would have liked to see that interaction. Gonna miss Tosh.

Gray, what a hottie. All that anger. I'm sure he'll pop up again, and it looks like John/Spike could be back since he's staying in our timeline for awhile.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 06 2008 @ 12:21 PM
By: rocko

Content:

I guess my next question (with regards to the version of Jack in storage throughout the 20th century) would be: how many other Jacks do you think are currently in the Torchwood storage facility?


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 06 2008 @ 12:22 PM
By: stjohnny

Content:

[QUOTE BY= DarthSkeptical] Another point in this regard is that, really, Jack's not been in charge of Torchwood 3 all that long, and throughout most of that time his concern has been with trying to reform it. (Or sleep with its various officers.) Not sure he's really had the time to go around and verify the contents of every single cupboard in the joint.

The easier thing to believe is just that the early-20th century Torchwood simply gave a false inventory of the cabinet and nobody peeked (or if someone did, it was a Torchwood boss other than Jack, who would've likely preserved the secret.)[/QUOTE]

I disagree. Knowing that Jack's been in charge in Torchwood for the last 8 years, couple with the fact that he's been there for over a hundred, AND the fact that he doesnt sleep, it seem strange that he doesn;t know anything about his sleeping self in the freezer?
And with the cyberwoman thing, Tommy the guard, people nicking stuff (from the first episode), i think Jack's running a bit of a shoddy organisation there!

I didnt enjoy the 'buried alive' plot for 1874 years to be uncovered by Torchwood, i would have preferred it it John Hart had found Jack by tracing the source of his ring, and then being found somewhere...distinctive!
And why the big rush to freeze him anyways? He could at least have had a wash? I'm sure they could have avoided him meeting himself.
Also, Jack hadnt aged much had he?

It's now been established that there were THREE Captain Jack Harknesses in 1941, one frozen, one active in Torchwood and one conman posing as an USAF officer, I wonder how many others there will be in the future?


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 06 2008 @ 05:57 PM
By: mad4plaid

Content:

[QUOTE BY= stjohnny] It's now been established that there were THREE Captain Jack Harknesses in 1941, one frozen, one active in Torchwood and one conman posing as an USAF officer, I wonder how many others there will be in the future?[/QUOTE]
You forgot the FOURTH - he was there for one night only with Tosh, and that one fell in love with the real Captain Jack Harkness. Wibbley-wobbley timely wimmey and all that stuff.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 06 2008 @ 06:30 PM
By: seanhuxter

Content:

[QUOTE BY= silvanthalas]
And was I the only one who was scratching their head over the way some of Gray's lines were delivered? At first I was just thinking that they had to do some rerecording of his lines, but then as you listen, at times those lines sounded more and more like Barrowman. Ok, the voice gives a real brotherly quality to the actor who plays Gray, but I was getting the impression that it was Barrowman himself dubbing lines over the actor's speaking. It was really off-putting the handful of times I caught it.[/QUOTE]

I'm glad you said that. I thought so too. There were some lines that didn't sound like Gray at all, but like John Barrowman dubbing him in. I was wondering if it was my hearing or what, but the more I think of it (and on a second viewing) the more I think you're right - that Barrowman was called in to overdub some of those lines.

Good episode. I'm completely and utterly shocked that they killed off TWO vital characters. One I could live with. Two? I'm just shocked.

Still, keep in mind that Owen's state is unknown. He's dead already, and apparently can't re-die, so perhaps once his body is decayed by the radioactive fluid, he will become spirit, or zombie, or whatever. In any case, his future is open. We may yet see him again.

Tosh, however... well, she's dead isn't she?

What now? I wish I knew.

And yes, I'm glad they explained away the discrepancies with THIS Tosh being the same as the Tosh of "Aliens of London" because it was never clear it was the same person, and we all knew she's no medic, but an IT expert. Now we find out that in typical Torchwood fashion, Owen was hung-over and out of communcation and Tosh had to just cover for him, pretending to be a medic.

Funny. But I echo the problem I have with that explanation - if she had been there, Jack would know, and would know the Doctor was there too. Yet there is never any mention of it? Doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

But a great series end. I can't wait to see what they have planned for next year.

I like the fact that it ended just before Doctor Who started up again, so we wouldn't have a Who Gap. Still... walking fat pustules... please tell me this isn't how the season is going to go... leave that stuff for Sarah Jane Adventures. Doctor Who isn't the place...

Sean.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 06 2008 @ 06:35 PM
By: seanhuxter

Content:

[QUOTE BY= rocko] My big question is- Did Jack KNOW that a future version of himself was in the freezer all this time, waiting to wake up at just the right moment?? [/QUOTE]

Of course not. When Jack left for the past, he had no idea he'd spend the nest 1900 years underground. The Jack they recovered in 1901 asked to be put into freeze on a timer that would wake him up AFTER he left 2008. The 2008 Jack couldn't possibly know.

The only thing wrong with that explanation is - why was Jack unaware of one of the items in his vault? Surely he'd have had plenty of time to explore every single item in the vaults, including the one his future self was in.

On the other hand, it may have been marked "DO NOT OPEN UNTIL CHRISTMAS!". (Metaphorically). Perhaps it was permanently sealed with no access given even to Jack. The dug-up Jack would have thought of that and made arrangements.

So it's entirely possible Jack did not know he was lying in the vault all this time.

-M-


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 06 2008 @ 06:40 PM
By: mad4plaid

Content:

[QUOTE BY= seanhuxter]
Funny. But I echo the problem I have with that explanation - if she had been there, Jack would know, and would know the Doctor was there too. Yet there is never any mention of it? Doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
[/QUOTE]

Of course Jack knew, he told us that in Ep 12 of Doctor Who last season. He had to wait for a Doctor that matched up with his timeline. So, it wouldn't be out of the question for Jack to send Owen or Tosh to London where they Doctor was (which he probably knew), but it wasn't HIS Doctor, so what good would it have done? Just like he watched Rose grow up on the Powell Estate (creapy, but whatever), he had to watch the Doctors adventures and not cross timelines.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 06 2008 @ 06:59 PM
By: tarashnat

Content:

[QUOTE BY= seanhuxter] [QUOTE BY= rocko] My big question is- Did Jack KNOW that a future version of himself was in the freezer all this time, waiting to wake up at just the right moment?? [/QUOTE]

Of course not. When Jack left for the past, he had no idea he'd spend the nest 1900 years underground. The Jack they recovered in 1901 asked to be put into freeze on a timer that would wake him up AFTER he left 2008. The 2008 Jack couldn't possibly know.

The only thing wrong with that explanation is - why was Jack unaware of one of the items in his vault? Surely he'd have had plenty of time to explore every single item in the vaults, including the one his future self was in.

On the other hand, it may have been marked "DO NOT OPEN UNTIL CHRISTMAS!". (Metaphorically). Perhaps it was permanently sealed with no access given even to Jack. The dug-up Jack would have thought of that and made arrangements.

So it's entirely possible Jack did not know he was lying in the vault all this time.

-M-[/QUOTE]

This was the modus operandi of Torchwwood established in a prior story where the team does not know what the sealed orders are in To the Last Man until the time they are activated...


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 06 2008 @ 07:10 PM
By: tarashnat

Content:

[QUOTE BY= DarthSkeptical] Actually, no, we haven't known this canonically until this episode. It was never stated onscreen that they were the same character, nor was it ever hinted that they might have been. Even the name "Doctor Sato" derives entirely from the credits to "Aliens of London". [/QUOTE]
This is a misinterpretation of the term canon. Canon, with regards to fiction, means "official", and not just what is shown on screen. Regardless of the desires of the consumers of the fictional universe, it is the creator/owner of the universe who establishes (or declines to establish) the canon. I can yell until I am blue in the face that something did or did not happen, but that does not make it canon, even if most of fans side with me. {Despite claims made to the contrary on Podshock by yours truly.)


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 06 2008 @ 07:16 PM
By: tarashnat

Content:

[QUOTE BY= seanhuxter] [QUOTE BY= silvanthalas]
And was I the only one who was scratching their head over the way some of Gray's lines were delivered? At first I was just thinking that they had to do some rerecording of his lines, but then as you listen, at times those lines sounded more and more like Barrowman. Ok, the voice gives a real brotherly quality to the actor who plays Gray, but I was getting the impression that it was Barrowman himself dubbing lines over the actor's speaking. It was really off-putting the handful of times I caught it.[/QUOTE]

I'm glad you said that. I thought so too. There were some lines that didn't sound like Gray at all, but like John Barrowman dubbing him in. I was wondering if it was my hearing or what, but the more I think of it (and on a second viewing) the more I think you're right - that Barrowman was called in to overdub some of those lines.
[/QUOTE]
On another board, I had posted the following sentence regarding the character of Gray:

[QUOTE]Also, at some points it almost felt as if his voice sounded like John Barrowman's. Weird.[/QUOTE]
So it seems like there may have been some playing around with the voices there.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 06 2008 @ 07:58 PM
By: merlin_mccarley

Content:

[QUOTE BY= tarashnat] [QUOTE BY= DarthSkeptical] Actually, no, we haven't known this canonically until this episode. It was never stated onscreen that they were the same character, nor was it ever hinted that they might have been. Even the name "Doctor Sato" derives entirely from the credits to "Aliens of London". [/QUOTE]
This is a misinterpretation of the term canon. Canon, with regards to fiction, means "official", and not just what is shown on screen. Regardless of the desires of the consumers of the fictional universe, it is the creator/owner of the universe who establishes (or declines to establish) the canon. I can yell until I am blue in the face that something did or did not happen, but that does not make it canon, even if most of fans side with me. {Despite claims made to the contrary on Podshock by yours truly.)[/QUOTE]

The point that is being missed here is that in 10... Sod that 1 year it won't matter a whit that we argued the point ad nausium here when it was first speculated uppon. The Fact that it was mentioned as an aside on this episode will be remembered. The very term Cannon is derived from an event that is still argued today (I.E. Council of Nicaea) so it still depends on interpertation. This is the reason for my initial post stating that this is the cannonicial proof that it is the same character. In truth, I could not give a overripe bannanna wheather it is the same character or not, but it's there for all to see that someone did.

Cheers,
Mike


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 07 2008 @ 02:53 AM
By: TorchwoodPDX

Content:

Goodbye and thanks for all the.... sex?
I was thrilled when Owen died, and more happy that he died twice. But that is just me.

I am hoping that they do not fill Torchwood back up with crew if they do series 3. One of the things that kills me is the writers try to do too much in one story.
Tons of plots and human emotion that its a race to get it all in and keep the main storyline afloat.

Take exit wounds were they try to....
Blow up the city
Bring back Spike (sorry had to)
Reunite Jack with this Brother (so wanted more then that)
Have Tosh and Owen come to terms (Hate Owen but huge waste of all of that setup over the last season)
Have Gwen's husband finally get that her job is important.

One of those story lines would have been a great episode, but they do 4 stories in one episode.
And the whole thing seems rushed and messy. But at least there where no giant life sucking monster this time.

I hope they keep the nest empty for Series 3 and run with the story lines they have yet to work out.
Jacks thing for Gwen
Spikes thing for Jack
and my need to see more eye candy, ah I mean Yanto!

Wink


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 07 2008 @ 03:45 AM
By: DarthSkeptical

Content:

[QUOTE BY= tarashnat] [QUOTE BY= DarthSkeptical] Actually, no, we haven't known this canonically until this episode. It was never stated onscreen that they were the same character, nor was it ever hinted that they might have been. Even the name "Doctor Sato" derives entirely from the credits to "Aliens of London". [/QUOTE]
This is a misinterpretation of the term canon. Canon, with regards to fiction, means "official", and not just what is shown on screen. Regardless of the desires of the consumers of the fictional universe, it is the creator/owner of the universe who establishes (or declines to establish) the canon. I can yell until I am blue in the face that something did or did not happen, but that does not make it canon, even if most of fans side with me. {Despite claims made to the contrary on Podshock by yours truly.)[/QUOTE]Well, there are actually two definitions of canon. One is the one you're referring to, and one is the one I'm talkin' about. Canon can also mean "the works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine", as in the Shakespare canon. This refers to the totality of work accepted to be authentically written by Shakespeare. It doesn't refer to commentary, review, behind-the-scenes waffling or anything else: just the actual work itself. And this is by far the more common definition that people are arguing about in Doctor Who canonical discussions.

Such debates typically wonder, "Do the books count? Do the audio plays count? Is the new series a separate instance of Doctor Who lore than the classic series?"

You do sometimes get the question of whether information outside the boundaries of the narratives themselves count, but these discussions are far less common. I mean, that notion of canonicity runs up against the immediate, modern barrier that RTD is an inveterate liar. So, for the narrower definition, you can't take what he says in an interview as "official" just because he is the current "canon keeper". As was proved in episode 1 of the 4th series, you can't even take the copy of story "officially" released to the press as the canonical version of that story, as there was a small but significant difference between that version and the definitive one broadcast on television.

It very much matters what makes it to screen with this fictional work, because the "official" sources have an interest in deliberate misdirection so as to maximize the effect of surprise (hence, "I've no interest in putting the Master in Doctor Who" and "Billie Piper isn't leaving the series"). Official sources are also subject to fallibility with respect to unforeseen events (hence, "Donna is a one-off companion" and "Donna's parents are coming back in series 4.")

In many ways, it is the difference between what is said behind-the-scenes and what happens onscreen that determines the value of the canon to people. If the onscreen result is pleasantly better than what the official spokespeople say, people keep watching. If it's not, people get "burned" and walk away from it.

It's extremely problematic to apply the broader, liturgical definition to fiction. Fiction isn't about finding "truth" or "rules". It's about the narrative itself.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 07 2008 @ 06:16 AM
By: seanhuxter

Content:

Cannon, Schmannon.

If I see it on-screen, it's official. If it's in a side-book, it is not, regardless of what the "author" (in this case, corporation) says.

Did the Doctor fight aliens in the Wild West with Martha Jones (from one of the books?) Of course not. I read it, so how can it not be?

Anything I read is to me speculation. If it's on-screen, it happened.

Even then, it can be re-interpreted. Is the Doctor half-human? Of course not. Just because he claims that in the 1996 film, doesn't make it true. He could be lying, he could be delerious, he could actually wish he was. But is he?

Not in my opinion.

As for "what the author says goes", nonsense to that too. In "Blade Runner", there is no conclusive proof Deckard is a replicant no matter how many times Ridley Scott tears his hair out yelling "HE IS!".

It wasn't obvious onscreen, and that's where it counts.

Sean.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 07 2008 @ 12:22 PM
By: tarashnat

Content:

[QUOTE BY= seanhuxter] Cannon, Schmannon.

If I see it on-screen, it's official. If it's in a side-book, it is not, regardless of what the "author" (in this case, corporation) says.

Did the Doctor fight aliens in the Wild West with Martha Jones (from one of the books?) Of course not. I read it, so how can it not be?

Anything I read is to me speculation. If it's on-screen, it happened.

Even then, it can be re-interpreted. Is the Doctor half-human? Of course not. Just because he claims that in the 1996 film, doesn't make it true. He could be lying, he could be delerious, he could actually wish he was. But is he?

Not in my opinion.

As for "what the author says goes", nonsense to that too. In "Blade Runner", there is no conclusive proof Deckard is a replicant no matter how many times Ridley Scott tears his hair out yelling "HE IS!".

It wasn't obvious onscreen, and that's where it counts.

Sean.
[/QUOTE]

So, Ridley Scott trumps Philip K. Dick, oh, the HORROR!!! Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? doesn't count? Deckard was not an android...


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 08 2008 @ 05:30 AM
By: Tin Dog Podcast

Content:



hey its that time again... the last of the Torchwood doubles...

here


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 08 2008 @ 11:43 PM
By: romana_II

Content:

I'm still in shock.

I wasn't the biggest fan of Owen, but I loved Tosh.
Makes me really interested in how series 3 will pan out.

And did anyone else notice the ending shot of Jack, Gwen and Ianto standing together in the hub was very similar to the ending shot from last season.

Great episode.
I liked the twist on John Hart's character, the atmosphere and tension throughtout this story and finally explaining way the Aliens in London plot hole that bugged the hell out of me last episode.

Other than the silliness with the grim reapers, it was great.
Very moving. I don 't think I can watch it again for sometime, I'm such a big girl sometimes.
I'll miss Owen and Tosh... just then they were getting interesting, but life goes on. Looking forward to another season of a most likely new Torchwood team.

4.5/5 for me.


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: April 15 2008 @ 02:54 PM
By: daveac

Content:


BBC 2 have just repeated this episode again tonight - and would you believe it - I got the same bit of dirt in my eye as when watching the first time.

Sad to see Tosh go - but what a sendoff.

Cheers, daveac


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: June 20 2008 @ 08:41 PM
By: Linquel

Content:

I finally watched the rest of series 2. I thought the finale was ok. I never did warm up to Owen, so his death wasn't that big a deal to me. That they killed off Tosh, too, was a bit of a surprise. But the thing that cracked me up the most was, this past weekend on the CIA podcast Dave mentioned the Justice League of America in some context. So when immortal Jack was buried back in 27 AD Cardiff, all I could think about was the Justice League episode where some of the league got sent back in time and one of them buried their communicator in the ground where the JLA headquarters would one day stand. It was "nuclear powered" so it was still working thousands and thousands of years later, and the JLA was able to detect it and determine where in the past the others were stranded. Mr. Green

I'll watch series 3 when it comes out, but Torchwood is still in 3rd place of the three shows in the Whoniverse.

/-edit-/

Just did a quick Google search and found this...
In the original cartoon, The Justice League, a nuclear battery from a JLA communicator buried on the JLA building site in the Cretaceous period enables the members to rescue others sent back in time by the original Legion of Doom.

And this...

(set phasers to snark)

"My Justice League mini-radio," the latter explains, "is powered by a tiny nuclear battery, which will last well over a hundred million years." Here his idea becomes a little suspect. He notes that Black Manta indicated they were stranded in 70 Million B.C. "All we have to do is add 1978 years, plus 252 days, and set the mini-radio to give off a trouble-alert signal at that time," he notes. There are so many fallacies with this that I’m not even going to bother. Even in terms of the goofiest comic book logic, this idea is a bit of a stretch.

So saying, they set the device—well, actually, they don’t, but we’ll assume they did—and then Aquaman scoops up a tiny hole and buries the device all of four or five inches deep. Back in the future, the remaining Superfriends sudden hear the signal. (Yeah, from under this tremendous building. Whatever.) Wonder Woman tracks the mystery signal with the "satellite direction finder." She bewildered to learn that it’s coming from beneath the Hall.

Superman uses his X-Ray Vision to locate the device. Punching through the floor, he produces the radio unit, which is in pretty good shape, all things considered. They take the artifact to the Geological Resarch Center for a little carbon dating (!), which proves a lot more precise than you would normally expect. (By the way, you apparently carbon date something by putting it on a metal tray and shining a spotlight on it.) "Carbon 14 dating of dirt on Aquaman’s radio," reveals A Scientist—who is, I swear, drawn as an Asian, "indicates it was buried in the Cretaceous Period, exactly 70,001, 978 years ago."

The Heroes realize that their buddies are trapped in the Past. Superman announces, "with my super-speed, I can handle the situation." (C’mon, you know he just says crap like that to bug the Flash.) So saying, he flies off into space. "Increasing his speed to beyond the barrier of light (??)," the Narrator explains, "Superman passes through a warp in time." Again, I’m amazed at how accurate this sort of thing is, for Supes quickly arrives at the exact, er, time spot where Aquaman and Apache Chief are waiting.




Ok...I'll stop now. Laughing Out Loud


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: June 20 2008 @ 08:58 PM
By: daveac

Content:

[QUOTE BY= Linquel] But the thing that cracked me up the most was, this past weekend on the CIA podcast Dave mentioned the Justice League of America in some context.

Ok...I'll stop now. Laughing Out Loud [/QUOTE]

Glad to be of help Wink

Cheers, daveac


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: June 20 2008 @ 09:05 PM
By: Linquel

Content:

[QUOTE BY= daveac]
Glad to be of help Wink

Cheers, daveac
[/QUOTE]

Holy insomniac, Dave. Don't you ever sleep? What is it there, 2am? Are you depriving yourself of sleep out of some kind of sympathy with Romana II since she has to stay up so late to join the podcasts?

Big Grin


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: June 20 2008 @ 09:25 PM
By: daveac

Content:

[QUOTE BY= Linquel]

Holy insomniac, Dave. Don't you ever sleep? What is it there, 2am? Are you depriving yourself of sleep out of some kind of sympathy with Romana II since she has to stay up so late to join the podcasts?

Big Grin [/QUOTE]

2.25 now Big Grin

One of the joys of being retired.

Just don't ring me early in the morning.

Cheers, daveac


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: June 21 2008 @ 05:38 AM
By: daveac

Content:

[QUOTE BY= daveac]

2.25 now Big Grin

One of the joys of being retired.

Just don't ring me early in the morning.

Cheers, daveac

[/QUOTE]

Well I don't believe it.

It's now 8 hours later - I'm up and awake - it'a 10.35 am here in the UK
and there have been NO posts here - or on the WHOLE site - in between!!

Cheers, daveac


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: June 21 2008 @ 09:04 AM
By: Linquel

Content:

[QUOTE BY= daveac]
Well I don't believe it.

It's now 8 hours later - I'm up and awake - it'a 10.35 am here in the UK
and there have been NO posts here - or on the WHOLE site - in between!!

Cheers, daveac
[/QUOTE]

That happened once over the last week I think, where I posted in the evening only to wake up the next day and see no new posts. Smile


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: June 21 2008 @ 12:54 PM
By: tarashnat

Content:

[QUOTE BY= daveac] [QUOTE BY= daveac]

2.25 now Big Grin

One of the joys of being retired.

Just don't ring me early in the morning.

Cheers, daveac

[/QUOTE]

Well I don't believe it.

It's now 8 hours later - I'm up and awake - it'a 10.35 am here in the UK
and there have been NO posts here - or on the WHOLE site - in between!!

Cheers, daveac
[/QUOTE]

Dave,

I think everyone is avoiding spoilers... except me. Smile I logged in a few times through the night, and no new comments... makes a mod's job easy!!!

Taras


[Spoilers]TW S2 E13 'Exit Wounds'

Posted on: June 21 2008 @ 04:11 PM
By: taff1a

Content:

I love spoilers. Not strictly to know what's coming, but because, whenever you read the plotline for an upcoming episode, on Doctor Who at least, I find the actual episode when viewed, is nothing like I imagined, and it's usually a heck of a lot better. This is probably due to RTD's love of winding up the fans, and dangling little red herrings. Mr. Green


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