Well since tarashat hasn't started this thread - here goes
i enjoyed the conclusion - but thought this episode had more of a 'Children's Programme' feel about it.
Not really the ending I would have likeed - it was a little 'cozy & safe' in it's conclusion.
God that was a terrible mess. Writer Phil Ford totally over-reached. It was hard enough for RTD to fit a true ensemble into the extra length Journey's End. Why on Earth did Ford think he could equal RTD with just 30 minutes? Far from being too simple, the plot was so stuffed—and largely with nonsense—it ended up exploding.
There's no element that bore the weight of the slightest logic. Sarah has spare lipstick? A Sontaran—even the most desperate—would serve a shapeshifter? The UNIT captain was actually a Bane? An interdimensional doorway of armageddon was shorted out by an underpowered sonic device? Luke was at all tempted by Wormwood's maternal appeal? And Mrs. Wormwood—you know, the one who scolded SJS for her barrenness—is suddenly revealed to be a spinster herself? Puh-lease. The last time I was so insulted by a half-hour of BBC television, Sylvester McCoy was playin' the spoons.
Of course, the greatest tragedy by far was that it was a total, miserable waste of the Brig. Clearly Ford knows how to sprinkle the mysterious fairy dust on older characters, as we saw with the excellent characterization of the old woman in Eye of the Gorgon. But here, the Brig was little more than . . . well, an archetype. What was the damned point of bringing him back to an audience of kids who never knew him, if he was going to be used so incredibly blandly? New viewers couldn't possibly have found anything interesting in that characterization, and those of us who know better got absolutely nothing of value from what was a whole lot less than a Battlefield redux. I mean, there wasn't an attempt to use the Brig as a source of old wisdom, mush less a conversation about the Doctor or Harry. Even UNIT wasn't really present, as things turned out.
That was just the worst episode of SJA to date. Sontar-ha, indeed.
I think we're fotgetting that this is a children's programme, I don't think grown adults ripping it apart really does it any justice. For its target auidence this is the most ground breaking children's series in a long, long time and should be praised for that. The stuff between Wormwood and Luke was a good plot for those children who have trouble with their adoptive or step parents, which was nicely done I thought.
Although it wasn't brilliant, it certainly wasn't the worst SJA story - Revenge of Siltheen springs to mind.
I've said it before and i'll say it again, SJA is the better Doctor Who spin-off.
Wow... Darth really didn't like it.
Sure, it had its problems... but even with it, I found it more interesting than some other stories... what was it, the second story with the clowns, that didn't really grab me. Though I know for others, it was a great story.
It was great seeing the Brig again, though I agree I wish he had more to do in this story.
The inter-dimensional gateway being shorted out when the Sontaran and Wormwood falling in together seemed a bit lame. And the ground returning to the center after it closes exactly the way it was before as if nothing happened was a bit of stretch as well. But as Colin has said, it is a children's show and I'll let some of these things slide a bit.
I did not care for the epilogue (right after the climax)... I felt that was overly corny. How wonderful the Earth and its people are and so forth. Seemed a bit preachy and well as I said corny.
For me it didn't seem like a series finale, and that is a good thing really. This story could have easily been placed mid-season. Yeah, it had some of the stereotypical elements of RTD's shows series finales with the returning villain from the beginning of the series returning (Sontaran) and even going further with the returning Wormwood character... and of course we had the Brig. And the world or universe was at state once again. But I guess because they simply don't have the budget, they needed to keep things a bit more grounded. In that sense it felt more like a classic DW story. The effects were acceptable, but not breathtaking or distracting.
So while it had its share of issues and problems (yeah, Darth is right, a Sontaran serving a shape-shifter is a bit hard to swallow), it did hold my interest to the end. That was not always the case with some other stories this year.
It certainly has been hit and miss this series. I agree with Louis, the clown episode was particularly poor. Anyway, this one was interesting enough with the Brig but not great by any means. I even watched it with my daughters and they weren't overly impressed. Nevermind, it's always good to see some cross-over (UNIT, Brig, Sontarans) but unfortunately I doubt this spin-off will continue for much longer when RTD goes - which is a shame because I do think it has it's place. Do we know if a 3rd series has been confirmed and has anything been released/leaked about the future of the spin-offs when the Moff takes over??
I haven't read the threads for either part yet. I just finished watching them back to back. That had to have been the worst episode of either series. None of it made any sense. And the ending with the "Don't forget who lives here" was just uber-cheesy. Wow.
Sorry. Just wanted to clarify, I meant worst of either series of SJA (meaning series 1 or 2). I still like this show more than Torchwood, but this story was a wreck. I even enjoyed the clown one more than this.
Am I the only person who loved this?
Everyone was on top form - Samantha Bond showimg how great "human" villains can be, Nicholas Courtney sparkling away, nice Sontaran nastiness (and he wasn't serving under Wormwood, he had allied himself to Wormwood for - he thought - mutual benefit. Only when his true position within the deal as servant was revealed did he turn on Wormwood to try and eliminate his shame) and some entertaining sequences of heroes in peril.
And a third series has been confirmed by the BBC. Although Moffat has said he won't be involved in any of the spin-offs.
I felt this two parter was typical of much of series two of SJA. While it had some good elements, the overall execution was not very good. For me, this series of SJA bored me a bit. I know it's meant for a younger audience but when I was younger, I was watching Doctor Who, which is far ahead of this program.
SJA has become very much a formula program. An alien threatens our heroes. They are captured but escape after a very slow chase (take two steps, stop to talk, allow bad guy to catch up, run some more, and repeat). Later some kind of techno-babble saves the day.
There is a lot to like about the program. I like how SJA doesn't really feature any violence to resolve conflicts. I like the friendships among the characters. Rani and her family have been good. But the scripts have been a disappointment. I hope series three will fulfill the promise of the program.
[QUOTE BY= cybercolin] I think we're fotgetting that this is a children's programme, I don't think grown adults ripping it apart really does it any justice..[/QUOTE]It's written by grown adults, so grown adults can certainly rip into it. If it were written by kids, I could buy your call for leniency. But it's not. It's written by very much the same people who write for Doctor Who and have a long enough listing at IMdB to no longer deserve the title "rookie".
I can tell whether an episode of Avatar: The Last Airbender, written for the same target age range as SJA, is logically constructed. I know I was happier with the plot element on this week's episode of Star Wars: Clone Wars than I was with this steaming pile from SJA. And the whole reason Dr. Seuss is the best-selling range of children's books is because the adults, who have to read them to their children, love the books' sheer sense of effortless lyrical style.
Adulthood does not suddenly disqualify you from commenting on whether a piece of entertainment works for kids. Cause the truth is, if it works for an adult—but is basically free of overt sexuality and gory violence—then it's probably a show that'll totally entrance a kid. Indeed, one might say its a pre-qualification of parenthood that one be able to screen so-called "children's entertainment" in an effort to determine whether it's appropriate for your kids. "Appropriate" doesn't just speak to the rating of the piece, but also to whether it satisfactorily stimulates the mind of a child. The failure of adults to judge "children's" television on the presence of quality rather than the absence of offense, is the only thing that explains Barney's popularity.
To me, the moment at which you have to defend a work by saying that it's "just for kids" is the very instant you know the work isn't that great. A plot hole is a plot hole, regardless of age. Having the solution to problems magically appear is "cheating", and kids know it as well as adults. The fact that kids have consistently predicted the best episodes of Doctor Who with high "Fear Factor" marks is proof enough, to me, that they can recognize and appreciate genuine drama.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that SJA, in general, sucks. There are great stories in the SJA catalog already—indeed some of them written by the very same guy. Enemy of the Bane looked like it was shaping up to be one of them—until part 2 started. But Phil Ford just got it wrong here in the end. And there is no reason to "sugar-coat" his failure just because "it's a kid's show".
Indeed, we would do well to be guided by Christopher Eccleston's stated reason for taking the role of the Ninth Doctor. To paraphrase a line he once gave to Doctor Who Confidential, if people get solid drama as kids, they will demand better as adults. And that's why, really, I'm madder at this episode than I have been at any half-hour of "children"s" television in a while. It goes against RTD's general vision about the genre. I simply can't believe that the same guy who gave us Dark Season and Century Falls failed to step in at the script stage and ask a few questions. Then again, maybe when he read Ford's script, he was being ruled by that part of his brain that gave us "Voyage of the Damned" and "Partners in Crime".
Worse, maybe both Gardner and he were "mentally checked out of the building" by this point in the production of SJA. The scariest thing about this episode is its possible implications for the future. We've got a year left of their lame duck watch over BBC Wales, and I don't want this 30-minute taster to be indicative of what they've got coming in 2009.
[QUOTE BY= DarthSkeptical]To me, the moment at which you have to defend a work by saying that it's "just for kids" is the very instant you know the work isn't that great. A plot hole is a plot hole, regardless of age. [/quote]
See, I would disagree that saying something is "just for kids" is necessarily saying its not as good. I think its taking into account the fact that any drama - when its being made is going to make compromises/decisions based on the audience they are aiming it for. It strikes me that the complaint that a Sontaran wouldn't play second-fiddle to a shape-shifter is not really something I would want the maker's of the show to spend to much time trying to address.
As much as I hate to admit this and I do love this cast and like this series, it's lame. The logic is lame, the plot generic and similar every time, the idea I guess is to keep it Earth based so it's cheap cheap cheap, just like TORCHWOOD. No space or time travel really. And season one was a bit better. Still with good writers and minus Sarah Jane this show would really take off. It would be the TOMORROW PEOPLE without the special powers. Then again it would have almost no power. Or anything special. Sarah's all wrong. Witness how she keeps correcting people who call her just Sarah which is exactly what the Fourth Doctor ALWAYS DID! Yeah,better writers please and the writer DIDN'T EQUAL RTD, he bettered him. JOURNEY'S END sucks no end.
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