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     Home »  The David Tennant Era »  S3-Ep 10 'Blink'
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    S3-Ep 10 'Blink' Views: 9336
     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 12:02 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical] So I've just watched this thing for the umpteenth time, and I gotta wonder: wouldn't there have been one "reality" in which the Doctor and Martha waited until 2007 for Billy to have delivered the message? And at that moment, that timeline would've been closed to them because of Sally's actions. I mean the Doctor and Martha that will appear in "Utopia"—sure to them the events of "Blink" would've happend in a blink. But the first trip down the timeline, they had to wait just like everyone else, didn't they?


    If we presume that the Doctor either gave Billy a disk containing the data necessary for the TARDIS to recognize it, or that after Sally's conversation with the Doctor that he goes and visits Billy during his DVD production days then the Doctor just has to mark the end of his conversation with Billy as the arival time and location for the TARDIS for DVD distribution. Then for the Doctor and Martha, all they have to do is wait however long it was for Billy to show up to go back to traveling. Else we have a linerar story that has to be broken, and I think that Martha would be none too pleased to have a version of herself having work to support her "Kept Man" Wink for nigh on 40 years.

    I'm a Time Traveler, I point and laugh at archaeologist.
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     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 01:29 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  merlin_mccarley]. . . that he goes and visits Billy during his DVD production days . . .
    Right, but without a TARDIS, how else was he supposed to do that without also aging at the same rate? The Doctor and Martha don't have a TARDIS while they're waiting for BIlly to age; they have to have aged right alongside him. None of that would've mattered, of course, because it would've all been wiped out by the plan succeeding. But I think that this story could've had a very interesting part two in which we saw what happened to the Doctor and Martha while they waited for their plan to unfold. But, of course we couldn't have that, given that we just got finsihed doing one story about the Doctor's "human nature".

    So what we got, instead, was the slightly aged Doctor, throwing a rock from offscreen, just to convince Sally that he meant business with what he had written under the wallpaper.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 01:34 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical]
    [Quote  by:  merlin_mccarley]. . . that he goes and visits Billy during his DVD production days . . .
    Right, but without a TARDIS, how else was he supposed to do that without also aging at the same rate? The Doctor and Martha don't have a TARDIS while they're waiting for BIlly to age; they have to have aged right alongside him. None of that would've mattered, of course, because it would've all been wiped out by the plan succeeding. But I think that this story could've had a very interesting part two in which we saw what happened to the Doctor and Martha while they waited for their plan to unfold. But, of course we couldn't have that, given that we just got finsihed doing one story about the Doctor's "human nature".

    So what we got, instead, was the slightly aged Doctor, throwing a rock from offscreen, just to convince Sally that he meant business.


    Nope, the whole point is that the only "neccesary" event is that the Doctor must tell Billy what to do when Billy arives in 1969. The TARDIS enabled DVDs could have been bookmarked to the instant that the Doctor was finshed with the Speach to Billy. The Doctor knows the event structure thanks to Sally (in advance of the event) so no need to go the long way round.

    I'm a Time Traveler, I point and laugh at archaeologist.
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     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 03:12 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  merlin_mccarley]
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical]
    [Quote  by:  merlin_mccarley]. . . that he goes and visits Billy during his DVD production days . . .
    Right, but without a TARDIS, how else was he supposed to do that without also aging at the same rate? The Doctor and Martha don't have a TARDIS while they're waiting for BIlly to age; they have to have aged right alongside him. None of that would've mattered, of course, because it would've all been wiped out by the plan succeeding. But I think that this story could've had a very interesting part two in which we saw what happened to the Doctor and Martha while they waited for their plan to unfold. But, of course we couldn't have that, given that we just got finsihed doing one story about the Doctor's "human nature".

    So what we got, instead, was the slightly aged Doctor, throwing a rock from offscreen, just to convince Sally that he meant business.


    Nope, the whole point is that the only "neccesary" event is that the Doctor must tell Billy what to do when Billy arives in 1969. The TARDIS enabled DVDs could have been bookmarked to the instant that the Doctor was finshed with the Speach to Billy. The Doctor knows the event structure thanks to Sally (in advance of the event) so no need to go the long way round.
    Well, I guess. I mean, it's called a predestination paradox for a reason.

    But that rather contradicts "The Shakespeare Code", at a minimum, and all the rest of the Doctor's travels, I would think. What you're saying is that just because things are a certain way in the future that there's essentially nothing that could happen in the past to change them. Because the world didn't end in 1599, according to Martha's view of history, it can't end in 1599. But, in that adventure, the Doctor says, "Oh no. We're really in danger here. Just look at what happened to Marty McFly."

    But in "Blink", what you seem to be saying is that because Sally has already perceived events to happen in a certain way, and they've been recorded, then they must naturally unfold that way.

    I'm not sure I buy that the only thing that must happen is that BIlly must be told, "Go off and be a DVD publisher, and when ya get there, make sure you burn this special message and this complex TARDIS control matrix into these 17 DVDs." That's an awful big gamble for the Doctor to take, given his track record in series 1 alone on being right about the historical record of events.

    I think, rather, what's happened is that Sally's blue folder contains the roadmap of things that have to happen, and that at any point any one of those things could go wrong. The future creates the past, in this instance. So the Doctor has to ensure that history unfolds as Sally has told him it will. So I think he's actively working it until the end. The stone throwing at the top of the story is thus an homage to a similar predestination paradox moment from Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. The Doctor is, in a sense, Hermione Granger, throwing a stone into Hagrid's hut to ensure the kids leave when they're supposed to.

    To me the only wholly necessary event is that Sally gives the Doctor the blue folder. From there, he just connects the dots to make it so.

    Now, maybe you're right in that, since the story is told from Sally's perspective, and not the Doctor's, the Doctor takes action on the contents of the folder before the TARDIS gets captured. Maybe he plans ahead, gets the tapes ready, puts them in a safety deposit box, goes to the house to write the message on the wall, the whole deal. But that brings up the other anomoly. If he's warned ahead of time that this could all happen to him, why the hell doesn't he just not blink? Why does he not simply rig the TARDIS to detect these angels and take care of them himself on first contact?

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 03:49 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical]
    Now, maybe you're right in that, since the story is told from Sally's perspective, and not the Doctor's, the Doctor takes action on the contents of the folder before the TARDIS gets captured. Maybe he plans ahead, gets the tapes ready, puts them in a safety deposit box, goes to the house to write the message on the wall, the whole deal. But that brings up the other anomoly. If he's warned ahead of time that this could all happen to him, why the hell doesn't he just not blink? Why does he not simply rig the TARDIS to detect these angels and take care of them himself on first contact?


    That's the point alright. After he receives the folder from Sally the Doctor starts shaping events so that he is NOT stranded and tempted to hijack (or even Eek! hitch from) a ride from a earlier version of himself. If he has the data burned already (Billy knows what a DVD is) he just has to hand Billy the list and a disk and he's away. He can paint the walls when he goes back or prior to the event. But if he lived forward all the way he would make very sure he did not go alone. The angel was right outside the window and he would not risk getting stranded a second time, unless....

    After preping all that is needed for the events to unfold as Sally sees them, he realizes that he must throw a rock through the window (beacuse it doesn't make sense for the angel to throw it, that I buy) with Martha by his side. And they get "killed nicely" at that point. This works also, but then raises the possibility that the whole incident could have been avoided.

    Ah, the nice circular logic dizziness that is the makings of a true Clasic.

    I'm a Time Traveler, I point and laugh at archaeologist.
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     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 04:33 AM EDT
    Well, see, I actually believe the whole thing could have been avoided. After all, he has pretty specific foreknowledge. I think he chooses to trust the blue folder because he sees the result, ultimately, is that Sally and Lenny get together as a direct consequence of events, and that there are lots of other lives that will be uprooted if he doesn't stick to the plan. If he vanquished the angels alone, which I think he could've done, then Lenny and Sally wouldn't end up together, Lenny's sister doesn't have her large family, Billy doesn't have a successful life with the other Sally. He takes the personally riskier path, essentially, for love. In other words, the Doctor chooses to embrace the paradox when he really doesn't have to.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 07:12 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  merlin_mccarley]

    That's the point alright. After he receives the folder from Sally the Doctor starts shaping events so that he is NOT stranded and tempted to hijack (or even Eek! hitch from) a ride from a earlier version of himself. If he has the data burned already (Billy knows what a DVD is) he just has to hand Billy the list and a disk and he's away. He can paint the walls when he goes back or prior to the event. But if he lived forward all the way he would make very sure he did not go alone. The angel was right outside the window and he would not risk getting stranded a second time, unless....

    After preping all that is needed for the events to unfold as Sally sees them, he realizes that he must throw a rock through the window (beacuse it doesn't make sense for the angel to throw it, that I buy) with Martha by his side. And they get "killed nicely" at that point. This works also, but then raises the possibility that the whole incident could have been avoided.

    Ah, the nice circular logic dizziness that is the makings of a true Clasic.


    I think the Doctor (or Martha) throws the rock - but they must to my mind throw the rock after the 'story' is played out - ie. they do it to 'complete the logic' - for if they don't the whole 'cirular logic' falls apart.

    I don't think they 'throw the rock' before because when we first see the Tardis at the police station it already looks as though it has been there a number of years (and in the commentary they mention its delapidated state) so the Doctor and Martha weren't thrown back to 1969 from being in the house in 2007.

    We also know the writing on the wall was done in 1969 so the Doctor and Martha were at the house in three different time periods - 1969, the year (whichever it was) they were 'killed gently' leaving the Tardis behind and finally to 'throw the rock' - which makes Sally believe something strange is happenning.

    Sally tells the Doctor that he will, at some point, be stranded in 1969 and gives him the account of events 'from her timeline' - so once Billie is given the message the Tardis (from the Doctor and Roses EDIT - sorry 'from the Doctor and Martha's) - see post below Rolling Eyes ) point of view will just appear before them in 1969.

    I expect the doctor would have programmed it to arrive just after Billie has left them in the alley - as otherwise Billie (having seen it at the policestation and then suddenly appear) might realise he doesn't have to 'go the long way back' and trying to explain the need for him to do so would be difficult.

    As to the idea that there will be two Doctors and two Marthas - one going the 'slow 38 year way' and the other 'in a blink' sounds right to me - but of course the 'in a blink via the Tardis arriving in 1969' route would cause the 'slow 38 year way' to collapse.

    I suppose another option is that one set of Doctor and Martha get in the returned Tardis and just go about their travels whilst the other pair live 38 years from 1969 to 2007 where they enter the house - one of them throws the rock AND because in doing that they 'collapse the loop' they 'blink' out of existance - so they when Sally turns around to see who has throw the rock nobody is there.

    Cheers, daveac


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     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 08:31 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  daveac]

    .... - so once Billie is given the message the Tardis (from the Doctor and Roses) point of view will just appear before them in 1969....


    My brain is now fried.

    *********************************************************** "Rubber Soles - Swear by them!"
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     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 09:46 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  whodovoodoo]
    [Quote  by:  daveac]

    .... - so once Billie is given the message the Tardis (from the Doctor and Roses) point of view will just appear before them in 1969....


    My brain is now fried.


    Sorry - I don't know how I made that slip - relative dimensions in Time and Space? - I of course meant the Doctor and Martha - now corrected. Rolling Eyes

    Cheers, daveac

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     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 10:22 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  daveac]I expect the doctor would have programmed it to arrive just after Billie has left them in the alley - as otherwise Billie (having seen it at the policestation and then suddenly appear) might realise he doesn't have to 'go the long way back' and trying to explain the need for him to do so would be difficult.

    Cheers, daveac



    Well, the Doctor has probably had time to scope out a place that won't raise eyebrows. The question is why call Billy by the name Billie unless you really miss Rose there Dave Wink .

    Cheers,
    Mike M.

    I'm a Time Traveler, I point and laugh at archaeologist.
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     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 03:03 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  merlin_mccarley] The question is why call Billy by the name Billie unless you really miss Rose there Dave Wink .

    Cheers,
    Mike M.


    Me? Have Billie on the brain? I don't know what you mean Big Grin



    Cheers, daveac

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     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 05:12 PM EDT
    Alright. How do we handle this bit of the puzzle: why two years? Why make a point of Billy saying, and Sally confirming, that the disappearances around the house started two years ago? Why, indeed, were all those people driving up to such a house?

    And, for that matter, how does the TARDIS land around an abandoned house, protected by these angels—with no one around to "see" them into immobility—and it not get captured long before the events of this story? Why isn't the sequence of events: Doctor and Martha land in the TARDIS close to the house, Doctor and Martha get "killed nicely", angels immediately capture the TARDIS, game over. Who's around to stop the angels after the Doctor and Martha get spirited away?

    Perhaps more to the point why can't they just use the damn key? And following from that, how did they get the key in the first place? If their mere touch instantly transports people back in time, how could they grab the key without the person instantly disappearing? I guess you could say that the Doctor let them have the key in order to make things happen as Sally had described, but that still seems an awfully big risk.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Friday, June 15 2007 @ 07:05 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical]
    Perhaps more to the point why can't they just use the damn key? And following from that, how did they get the key in the first place? If their mere touch instantly transports people back in time, how could they grab the key without the person instantly disappearing? I guess you could say that the Doctor let them have the key in order to make things happen as Sally had described, but that still seems an awfully big risk.


    I thought from the start that the Key was Martha's key.

    Perhaps - if they came back to throw the rock - or indeed if it was their alternate selves that 'lived 38 years' that threw the rock - and also left the key.

    The risk being that either the Angels or Sally would get into the Tardis.

    EDIT - that should read:-
    The risk being that the Angels would get into the Tardis rather than Sally

    Cheers, daveac

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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 04:00 PM EDT
    Hey, sorry to bring this older thread back to the fore again but I just had a thought (and apologies if someone else has already noticed this but 8 pages is too much to wade through!).

    You know how the Doctor tricked the Angels into looking at each other after the Tardis dematerialised? One of the characters said that they'd never move again.

    Surely the Angels would only be trapped in that pitch black basement for as long as the light bulb lasts?

    Not important and it may have been noticed already but just thought I'd share that Smile

    If half the art of survival is running away, the other half is knowing when to keep a straight face.
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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 04:51 PM EDT

    Depends on whether the angels need light to "see".

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