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     Home »  The David Tennant Era »  S3-Ep 11 'Utopia'
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    S3-Ep 11 'Utopia' Views: 17283
     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 11:31 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical]

    • Unless it's just sorta happened while typing these responses, I was surprised no one mentioned on the Podcast or in this thread that, for lack of a better title, "The Master's Theme" or "The Saxon Tap" is actually just the baseline of the Doctor Who theme. It also could be interpreted as a sped-up repetition of the the last few notes of the original Master's theme from "Mind of Evil". That's very clever.



    Well, I sort of said it way back when from the very first time we saw the trailer for the second half of the 2007 series when we first saw the Saxon tapping. I said it reminded me of the 1999 Mark Gatiss and David Williams comedy sketch depicting Sidney Newman trying to sell Doctor Who to the BBC. The head of programming for the BBC and a walk-in courier at one point started tapping on the desk the classic Doctor Who theme music.

    So for me, "the drums" always reminded me of that beat in the theme music.

    Cheers,
    Louis

    ☛ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/LouisTrapani ♥ ♥
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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 11:40 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical] My previous bit of fluff out of my system, here are some mroe serious comments.

    • I'm amused by the fact that few people are underlining the point that this was a "proper" off-Earth story. After all the clammor for the Doctor to get off Earth, I'm fascinated by how little consideration the fairly fascinating planet got.


    Well I think people were so absorbed by the episode they forgot they weren't on Earth. I mean very little of the story required there to be a different planet. The one shot down the canyon, and the linkage to the Chan-Tho "companion", sure, but otherwise it was just another quarry at night. But really, I think it matters less to people because the episode itself was so good.

    [Quote • I was delighted that the fob watch returned. It makes me feel better about the deviation "Human Nature"'s screen adaptation took from the novel.


    Yes! Nice re-usage of technology. And when Martha says "It's the same watch", we know that the Master must have stolen it from the TARDIS before he gets to this point in time.


    [Quote • I'm somehwat curious why the Master's "human nature" was so benign. John Smith was fairly similar to the Doctor; I'm a little perplexed why Yana wa so different to the Master. Course, that made the turn to the Master that much more unexpected, so I'm not complainin' too much. I'm just surprised.


    Well, think of Mr. Smith. He wasn't much like the Doctor at all, really. He lacked a lot of the Doctor's good qualities. I think the watch just makes you human, in all your human random attitudes. It made John Smith a bit of a coward, though he would stand up to an onslaught with weapons. Perhaps the watch makes you fairly neutral to events, because it seems to fit your attitudes to your current surroundings. Mr. John Smith was most definitely a teacher in the early part of the 1900s. Complete with allowing one boy to beat the living daylights out of another. Not something the Doctor would have done. So I doubt the Master would have retained any of his evil. He would simply try to fit in to whatever world he transformed in. In this case, he appears to be an educated man (much like John Smith) and he was plunked down into a problem - get this rocket to Utopia going.

    [Quote • Like others have mentioned, the jury is still very much out on whether Jack's initial appearance this week makes any damn sense given the conclusion of Torchwood series 1.


    Thankfully someone other than me noticed this. I thought for sure this didn't gel well with the series-ender of "Torchwood", but I didn't go back to check.

    No idea how they're going to reconcile the differences.


    Sean.

    One solid hope is worth a cartload of uncertainties.
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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 11:41 AM EDT
    Oh, yah. And I loved that this took the phrase "runaround" to it's most literal level. Not little half-runs down a 10 foot corridor. But full-on proper sprints. So exciting Made the Master's reveal incredibly powerful to make all that running punctuated by a slow walk and a whisper. I can't believe how much more I like Graeme Harper's direction this year than last.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 12:37 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Louis]
    [Quote  by:  Magpie] ...
    (edit - hehehe the forum censored "pocket watch" in a really hilarious way. Look - pocke*censored*ch - !!)


    Ewww... it's being a

    t w a t !


    Also known as "doing a S*censored*hrope".
    IIRC There is a site somewhere along the lines of "smut that only a machine could find."

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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 01:11 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical] Oh, yah. And I loved that this took the phrase "runaround" to it's most literal level. Not little half-runs down a 10 foot corridor. But full-on proper sprints. So exciting Made the Master's reveal incredibly powerful to make all that running punctuated by a slow walk and a whisper. I can't believe how much more I like Graeme Harper's direction this year than last.
    I'd like to see the outtakes from that scene. Around the TARDIS console is a bit cluttered, makes me wonder if John didn't collide with that seat a few times.

    Oh my it was nice hearing the late Roger Delgado's voice.

    New Who is NOT a reboot!

    -cs™

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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 02:31 PM EDT
    First time posting here so accidently posted this as a new topic instead of here as I originally planned!

    Has anybody considered the possibility that it is not the Chamelion arch but it is the Kamelion arch? Both The Doctor and The Master had Kamelion aboard their TARDIS' and maybe he installed it or it has been created using his technology. When you think about it, the whole rewriting of a persons physiology sounds similar to what Kamelion could do (I cannot think off the top of my head whether it is categorically stated that Kamelion's changes was only skin deep or not). Just a thought. Loved the episode by the way!!!

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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 05:52 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Dalzo] First time posting here so accidently posted this as a new topic instead of here as I originally planned!

    Has anybody considered the possibility that it is not the Chamelion arch but it is the Kamelion arch? Both The Doctor and The Master had Kamelion aboard their TARDIS' and maybe he installed it or it has been created using his technology. When you think about it, the whole rewriting of a persons physiology sounds similar to what Kamelion could do (I cannot think off the top of my head whether it is categorically stated that Kamelion's changes was only skin deep or not). Just a thought. Loved the episode by the way!!!


    Welcome to the forum!

    Whichever way it's spelt I think there could be the same principals at work in both processes.

    Cheers, daveac

    daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP, cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 06:37 PM EDT
    chewed off two fingernails watching the end of the episode (you'd think I'd out grown that in my 30s). Slow to start, (slow to care, really), and in the beginning I was very angry at the Doctor for his attitude towards Jack (like its his fault! stupid Rose, you shouldn't alter physics if you cannot control it). But, in the end, I loved it! Cannot wait until next week.

    Two items though:

    1) The Doctor always said he'd know if other TLs were out ther, b/c he could sense them. In fact, as soon as the watch opened and Yana became the Master, the Doctor knew! So, while he and Martha were on Earth earlier this season and Mr. Saxon was about, why didn't the Doctor sense him?

    2) I thought the drums Yana heard was actually his missing heart -- or at least I thought that as soon as we recognized him as who he really was.

    3) Don't you think the Master's Tardis (grandfather clock, right?) should be somewhere on the planet? OR are we really going to get all three heroes back to an exact period in time when Jack was off by 150 some odd years?

    Still, I CANNOT WAIT UNTIL MY SATURDAY NIGHT FLIGHT LANDS!

    supremacy is relative
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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 06:46 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  mad4plaid] Two items though:

    1) The Doctor always said he'd know if other TLs were out ther, b/c he could sense them. In fact, as soon as the watch opened and Yana became the Master, the Doctor knew! So, while he and Martha were on Earth earlier this season and Mr. Saxon was about, why didn't the Doctor sense him?

    2) I thought the drums Yana heard was actually his missing heart -- or at least I thought that as soon as we recognized him as who he really was.

    3) Don't you think the Master's Tardis (grandfather clock, right?) should be somewhere on the planet? OR are we really going to get all three heroes back to an exact period in time when Jack was off by 150 some odd years?


    A bit of Douglas Admas math there I guess Wink .

    1. Yes exactly, Saxon's earliest mention is in Love and Monsters. Why is it that the Doctor can't detect him? Does the Master have some exoctic device to mask himself from the Doctor's senses, without rewriting his DNA and Personality?

    3. No reason to expect that his TARDIS (Ionic Collum, Computer Bank, Grandfather clock, or other appearance) would be on this planet since he was found naked as a child on another planet. The back story should be intresting though. And I hope the Doctor's math is a bit better than Jack's if that is the route they end up using.

    Cheers,
    Mike M.

    I'm a Time Traveler, I point and laugh at archaeologist.
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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 06:51 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Magpie] It took you three viewings to notice that??? Hehe!! Smile I latched on to that exciting tidbit straight away Big Grin


    Yeah, well I had my hearing ravaged by a concert last Thursday night, which left my ears ringing off the hook the entire weekend - only today has it seemed to have returned to normal since then. Anyway, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. LOL Razz

    [Quote  by:  sgb1975] I hope for believability sake The Master did it on his own. If it was some form of punishment, then why oh why would they let Yana keep the watch??? This was one of my few peeves with HN/FoB...if changing their DNA and masquerading as a human is so important that even they, themselves, don't know about their true origin, then why risk letting Yana keep the watch (and why didn't Martha keep the other watch, instead of risking John Smith opening it, or somebody stealing it). Just take the watch and destroy it. Another problem with this theory, is that the Timelords DID believe in some form of capital punishment (see Deadly Assassin and Arc of Infinity), so why tip-toe around it and do some bizarre live-your-life-as-a-mortal thingy? If they have no awareness that they were once a Timelord, then where's the punishment?


    I had forgotten about the capital punishment thing - seems like that may've also resurfaced in the "Trial of a Time Lord" arc years later as well. Still, I'm holding to my hunch on this one of the Master having the process done TO HIM, not BY HIM. There's no other reason for the Doctor to say "I'm sorry" at the end- it makes no sense otherwise. Either the Doctor knows what happened via the Time Lords, etc. or he did it himself to put the Master away. Certainly supports the added speculation of recent about the watch truly appearing to be (and as mouthed by Martha the way many have taken it) the exact same watch the Doctor used in "Human Nature/Family of Blood." Again, this season has been all about the suggested nature of non-linear timelines to an extent, so anything's possible.

    As far as the watch goes, it can't really hurt a thing. You heard Yana, and even John Smith go so far as to say they'd never thought to open it - it's an old relic, it's never worked, etc. etc. - I take that as being part of the pre-written text to reinforce the uselessness of the watch before the process was done in either case- it therefore makes it a perfect cover to house the truth. Without Martha, John Smith would've never had a catalyst to be propelled back towards the watch in any way - it was meaningless, to a degree. Yana seemed much more attached to his, as he kept it with him, almost like an heirloom - but still, he felt nothing more towards it. Now - whether or not Chantho knew more than she was telling to an enraged Master Yana before her death remains to seen - if it's even meant to be known.

    To me, thinking back on it, I find it increasingly more fascinating that Yana had no suppressed memories or haunted thoughts that kept coming to him over time - it was apparently only "the sound of drums" in his head. The Doctor seemed to have an almost healthy, harmless outlet for his true existence - the advent of wild and wonderful dreams he then wrote about in his journal, dismissing them as the spark of a wandering imagination.

    Also - I truly have begun to wonder about Boe's involvement in all of this as well - the YANA anagram in light of his dying words is too damn spooky the more you think back on it - something's a miss there.

    But as always, any of us could be right and all of us could be wrong - half the fun after watching an episode as rich and ripe with theories as this one was is chatting it up with folks on the speculative side of things as a way of dealing with the torment between it and the next episode. lol Smile

    [Quote  by:  indiana_brian] I don't think the hand would have any effect on the Master's regeneration. Touching it through the glass would accomplish anything, but taking it with him gives him the same 'Doctor Detector' that Jack had in Cardiff.


    I dunno. Still seems awfully pertinent to me, based on that scene where "Master Yana" does the fingers thing, plus the other visual cues I mentioned before concerning the Master's post-regeneration awakening. And consider this - why does its purpose have to be singular in aid? Why not all of the above? Gave himself a charge to regenerate, plus he has it "on hand" (ouch - yes, I know) as a "Doctor Detector" ala Jack in Torchwood as well. Plus, as others have slightly touched on, he may've needed it to help hijack the TARDIS in some way, as I thought the aspect of the TARDIS being hotwired to a Time Lord's specific DNA was somehow canon, as mentioned somewhere before. Anyway.. again, it's all about speculation. And it's fun, don't you guys think? Mr. Green

    Human Biological Metacrisis = Bite Me, RTD.
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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 07:15 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  mad4plaid] 2) I thought the drums Yana heard was actually his missing heart -- or at least I thought that as soon as we recognized him as who he really was.


    That's a splendid notion - hadn't even considered that to be what that might've been alluding to, in some context.

    [Quote  by:  merlin_mccarley]

    1. Yes exactly, Saxon's earliest mention is in Love and Monsters. Why is it that the Doctor can't detect him? Does the Master have some exoctic device to mask himself from the Doctor's senses, without rewriting his DNA and Personality?

    3. No reason to expect that his TARDIS (Ionic Collum, Computer Bank, Grandfather clock, or other appearance) would be on this planet since he was found naked as a child on another planet. The back story should be intresting though. And I hope the Doctor's math is a bit better than Jack's if that is the route they end up using.

    Cheers,
    Mike M.


    Yes, the fact that we already know that a regenerated Master Simm is going back in time to take over as Mr. Saxon, while the Doctor never even mentions it in any sort of overlap prior to this point in the series may prove to be one gigantic plot hole, if they don't suss out the details. Even a Darth/Obi moment before now ala "I sense something... something I've not felt since..." would've been enough. lol

    Exactly. The Master's TARDIS could be anything, as his chameleon circuit always worked. I seem to remember it being a fireplace as well at some point - wasn't that in "Castrovalva?" Need to get cracking on my New Beginnings boxset and watch that one again - so little time in the day, anymore.

    Don't be so sure about his TARDIS being absent, though - remember, the "childhood" Yana spoke of is likely all fabrication on behalf of the chameleon arch and it's pre-written text to link the process with re-written biology. It's likely meaningless. Not for certain, mind you - but quite likely. Plus, the Master's TARDIS might be their only true way back - it's been suggested that even though they made a point of mentioning Jack's time device, it still, broken or not, can only make short jumps, or "hops" in time - they are trillions of light years away at the end of the universe. That's a bit more than a mere hop. Not to mention the problem with capacity - there's three of them, likely more than the device can manage.

    It will be a hoot indeed if they go on a wild "easter egg hunt" for the Master's lost TARDIS, in whatever form it might've been left in. I've a hunch the sonic screwdriver will fill in that potential blasted plot hole - lol. Razz

    Human Biological Metacrisis = Bite Me, RTD.
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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 08:54 PM EDT
    Possible The Sound of Drums spoilers here.

    -cs™

    http://twitter.com/Smittmaestro
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     Monday, June 18 2007 @ 11:32 PM EDT
    Don't forget to keep an eye on this website...


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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 07:01 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  merlin_mccarley]
    [Quote  by:  mad4plaid] Two items though:

    1) The Doctor always said he'd know if other TLs were out ther, b/c he could sense them. In fact, as soon as the watch opened and Yana became the Master, the Doctor knew! So, while he and Martha were on Earth earlier this season and Mr. Saxon was about, why didn't the Doctor sense him?

    2) I thought the drums Yana heard was actually his missing heart -- or at least I thought that as soon as we recognized him as who he really was.

    3) Don't you think the Master's Tardis (grandfather clock, right?) should be somewhere on the planet? OR are we really going to get all three heroes back to an exact period in time when Jack was off by 150 some odd years?


    A bit of Douglas Admas math there I guess Wink .

    1. Yes exactly, Saxon's earliest mention is in Love and Monsters. Why is it that the Doctor can't detect him? Does the Master have some exoctic device to mask himself from the Doctor's senses, without rewriting his DNA and Personality?

    3. No reason to expect that his TARDIS (Ionic Collum, Computer Bank, Grandfather clock, or other appearance) would be on this planet since he was found naked as a child on another planet. The back story should be intresting though. And I hope the Doctor's math is a bit better than Jack's if that is the route they end up using.

    Cheers,
    Mike M.


    Well I like the idea the 'sound of drums' relate to his missing heart.

    As to the Doctor not detecting Mr Saxon - maybe the Master took the Doctors hand not as something to help him re-generate OR something to detect the Doctor BUT as a sort of 'smoke screen'
    ie. the hand would give off the Doctors 'scent' so that the Doctor would get mixed signals if he detected the nearabouts of another Timelord - maybe to be fooled into thinking he was picking up traces of himself.

    Cheers, daveac

    daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP, cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 08:02 AM EDT
    Wow. So much to talk about. I'm only up through page 4 of the comments. I'll post what I have so far.

    More last thoughts before I read through the topic thread. I was completely sucked in this entire episode. Unfortunately, I knew it was going to be a cliffhanger of a three-part story due to the description posted in my alternate means source. But once the story got going, I was hooked. As soon as I saw the watch, I knew what was coming. And the first thing that went through my mind was, I'd love to hear what those people *censored*ing about them recycling the Human Nature story for the TV show thought about it. Because that seemed a perfect way to bring the Master back, and not go back on the Doctor saying he'd know if there were any other Time Lords out there. Derek Jacobi was fantastic. He went from sweet absent-minded professor to evil genius on a dime. I had a little voice in the back of my head whining about the Yana=You Are Not Alone bit, but I pushed it down and drowned it with beer. I had other stuff I wanted to post, but I can't remember. I'll start reading through the thread and take notes while I go.

    Once thing I just thought of (and I'll amend this if someone else mentions it) is, I was puzzled by the Master's regeneration at the end. They need to do some serious explaining because the Master was out of regenerations back in Deadly Assassin through Keeper of Traken. I thought he used a combination of the powers he got through the rod and sash of Rassilon and the Traken story to take over Nyssa's father's body. It wasn't a regeneration. And the gelatinous goo Master taking over Bruce's body certainly wasn't a regeneration. I wonder how (if) they'll explain it.

    [Quote  by:  Tardis-Knight] I'll tell you what though; If I ever make it to the very edge of time, I don’t know what I’ll find; but I don’t anticipate Michael Jackson’s Thriller gang, led by some sort of Darth Maul wannabe.


    This is the early front-runner for favorite comment in the thread. Big Grin

    [Quote  by:  NorthernLassUK]Trying to figure out how the doctor is going to get out of this situation, what a cliff hanger not only is the master back but the doctor is abandoned without his tardis,

    Can he get Jack's time travel device working I wonder?


    I'm thinking that whatever the Doctor did with his sonic screwdriver that sent the console sparking will be some kind of auto-return (like the time machine without the key in Time After Time) that will bring the TARDIS back after the Master gets out.

    [Quote  by:  merlin_mccarley]

    One thing I find facinating reading the responses is the fact that no one has yet to raise the point that was raised often in the 'Blink' thread-

    "But it's out of order!"

    Many had a problem with a single non-linear story, but here we have refrences to Mr. Saxon going back to the much debated "Love and Monsters" episode and none have ask why since Sir. Jacobi had yet to regenerate into Simm from the Doctor's efective timeline. Does seing the story develop through the Doctor's (and companion's) eyes make a diffrence in our perception of time flow? And I am sure we are all curious as to the placement in the Master's effective timeline this takes place as well.


    I was wondering if this was going to be brought up by anyone. I'm also curious how they'll get around all the Mr. Saxon references without violating the Doctor being able to sense another Time Lord. Surely, he would have sensed the Master during Lazarus Experiment.

    I'm going "Full Circle" and putting my avatar back to what it was when I first joined. :)
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