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     Home »  The David Tennant Era »  S3-Ep 11 'Utopia'
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    S3-Ep 11 'Utopia' Views: 17566
     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 06:07 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  tarashnat]
    Love & Monsters and Blink so far still have more posts, and Blink is still relatively active...


    Love and Monsters (without reading them) is probably for the wrong reasons, and yes, Blink is still going good. I wonder what kinda reaction the next couple of shows will bring.......

    Nothing dies of old age on Skaro!
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 06:23 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  NorthernLassUK] Remember, Chantho never asked Yana about the watch. Maybe the perception filter affected her also, thus making her a Time Lord too.

    Perhaps the watch will be opened near her body and cause her to come back to life as a Time Lord and or regenerate.

    Maybe her Tardis is in the room.
    Well, see, I don't know if I believe Chantho wasn't aware of the watch. There's a little tiny beat (and I imagine Dave might dig up the screen cap and post it at some point) at about the 35 minute mark that to me was quite telling. Martha flips the the watch around to confirm the Gallifreyan script on the front, and she can't quite pull off a "cool" reaction to it. Yana senses she knows a bit more than she's telling, and asks, "Does it matter?" Then we cut to a reaction shot of Chantho, who looks down and away as if she knows something. It's not a look of surprise; it's not curiosity; it's something to do with actual knowledge. Maybe a distant memory coming to the fore. But whatever it is, it's clear from her reaction that her answer to the question Yana poses is, "Yes, yes it does matter."

    It is a curious reaction, though, because when she asks the question, "Who are you?", I think that's genuine. I don't think she's heard the name "Master" before.

    My own little guess: If the Face of Boe was in some way instrumental in helping Yana into existence, he sought out another "last of a species" individual to watch over him. Maybe the deal is that the Face of Boe encountered the Master before the Doctor, thought the Master to be the last of the Time Lords, and tucked him away somewhere safe on the back end of time with another lost soul. And maybe Boe had given Chantho a cryptic warning about Yana that suddenly dawned on her.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 07:30 PM EDT
    Another little point of curiosity.

    Costumer Louise Page says in the commentary that Yana's look (or perhaps Jacobi's casting; it's somewhat unclear) is a nod to Hartnell. The choice of costume seems to have been very much up to Jacobi's veto. We don't know whether the other choices were basically in the same ballpark or not, and Jacobi apparently never needed to look at the other possibilities.

    The costuming seems to have been somewhat predicated a bit of a nudge by Page, and personal choice by the Knight of the Realm. So, although there's claim of "Hartnellishness" out there, narrative intent in the costuming is hard to divine.

    Thus I have to go on just what ended up on screen. The end result on screen isn't Hartnell at all. It's pretty exactly McGann's costume, without the coat, fob watch and all. Yes, it's different in color; adapted to a classic "Master black", but the style jumps out atcha as more Eighth Doctor than First. Sure, in fairness, the First and Eighth Doctors had similar outfits, but Yana's outfit here looks like the Eighth Doctor's "B" costume, in the same way that the blue suit introduced this series has been the Tenth Doctor's "B" costume. It's all high collared, flowing shirt, thick-knotted ascott, vest and pants in mastching color—more mid-19th century American than turn-of-the-century Victorian British.

    Maybe I'm also being pushed in the direction of the telemovie by the way the Yana/Master death mirrors the TARDIS-framed shooting of the Seventh Doctor. Or maybe I'm going there because the Eighth Doctor was so (to my mind bizarrely) featured in Joihn Smith's diary. Or possibly the camera work as it zoomed into the Master as he opened the watch was a Geoffrey Sax kinda moment. Or possibly it's just that the Eighth Doctor was the last incarnation to see the Master alive, so he must have something to do with how the Master ended up where he is.

    Or maybe I'm just an Eighth Doctor fan.

    I dunno. But whatever it is, I look at Professor Yana and immediately think Eighth Doctor, not First.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 07:56 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical] Well, see, I don't know if I believe Chantho wasn't aware of the watch. There's a little tiny beat (and I imagine Dave might dig up the screen cap and post it at some point) at about the 35 minute mark that to me was quite telling. Martha flips the the watch around to confirm the Gallifreyan script on the front, and she can't quite pull off a "cool" reaction to it. Yana senses she knows a bit more than she's telling, and asks, "Does it matter?" Then we cut to a reaction shot of Chantho, who looks down and away as if she knows something. It's not a look of surprise; it's not curiosity; it's something to do with actual knowledge.

    And maybe Boe had given Chantho a cryptic warning about Yana that suddenly dawned on her.


    This look?



    Cheers, daveac

    daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP, cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 08:03 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  tarashnat]
    Hmmmm, fob watch?

    FOB <--> YANA

    F - Face
    O - of
    B - Boe

    Y - You
    A - Are
    N - Not
    A - Alone



    Just seen on Digital Spy:-

    fob = Face of Boe

    fob = fob watch

    fob = found older brother

    Cheers, daveac


    daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP, cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 08:10 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  tarashnat]
    [Quote  by:  Tardis-Knight] I don't think an individual episode has generated such discussion since I've been around this great website.

    Love & Monsters and Blink so far still have more posts, and Blink is still relatively active...


    I think that so much is being read into this episode that many are setting themselves up for a disappointment.

    Soon the conclusion will be helpless in the face of so much expectation.

    I think that many have seen the return of many things in the episode such as the flashback to the FOB and made assumptions that may not be planned.

    Of course this has not been helped by the confidential.

    I think that I can make a fairly safe observation which may put a few things into perspective.

    Before anyone gets carried away with the prediction that the FOB will walk into the room twirling a fob watch with the Rani hanging off an eyebrow and defeating the Master by reciting a single anagram that only the Doctor can decypher think about this:

    When this story was written and was filmed RTD and crew had no idea whether these episodes would be the last in this rennaisance. Therefore the thinking was likely to be along the lines of...... If we're ending it here; let's go out with a bang. If it maybe ends here (because we don't know what "Auntie" is thinking......then let's create a clamour for a return. If we get the new series then we can't have hurt anything too much and it will probably do much to restore some ratings.

    As well as most of the stuff that everyone else saw, I also saw a typical recap and series conclusion. Where the high points of all of the series are revisited to show the casual viewer how we got to where we are now. Just like when Bad Wolf and The Parting of the ways aired there was a brief visual recap of all the instances of the phrase "Bad Wolf." As someone who has watched each episode I thought the visual recap of FOB was a little clumsy when an echoey voice memory would have done just as well.

    I think that we may see much that is unexpected and some that is; but only because of the above factors.

    While I am enjoying this thread I am keeping an open mind while waiting to see both how many of these theories pan out and what the final Podshock reviews sound like with a wry smile.

    Forget the shooty dog thing!
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 08:17 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  BadWolf] Therefore the thinking was likely to be along the lines of...... If we're ending it here; let's go out with a bang. If it maybe ends here (because we don't know what "Auntie" is thinking......then let's create a clamour for a return. If we get the new series then we can't have hurt anything too much and it will probably do much to restore some ratings.



    You may well be right - when the 'remaining episodes' super trailer was show (because we were going to miss a week of Dr Who) - I commented in of of the threads the the very last scene was of the Doctor in his Tardis giving a very strange look.

    My comment was - and I'm going to put it in white text again:-

    It looked as though this wasn't the Doctor ie. that the Master had taken over the Doctor's body

    Cheers, daveac

    daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP, cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 08:45 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  daveac]You may well be right - when the 'remaining episodes' super trailer was show (because we were going to miss a week of Dr Who) - I commented in of of the threads the the very last scene was of the Doctor in his Tardis giving a very strange look.

    My comment was - and I'm going to put it in white text again:-

    It looked as though this wasn't the Doctor ie. that the Master had taken over the Doctor's body

    Cheers, daveac
    Are you referring to the trailer shown at the end of The Lazarus Experiment? Because that scene you're referring to has already been shown (in FoB when The Doctor was doling out his punishments to the Family.)

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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 08:51 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  daveac]
    [Quote  by:  tarashnat]
    Hmmmm, fob watch?

    FOB <--> YANA

    F - Face
    O - of
    B - Boe

    Y - You
    A - Are
    N - Not
    A - Alone



    Just seen on Digital Spy:-

    fob = Face of Boe

    fob = fob watch

    fob = found older brother

    Cheers, daveac



    Family of Blood!

    Daleks don't accept apologies! YOU WILL BE EXTERMINATED!
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 08:59 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  BadWolf]
    I think that so much is being read into this episode that many are setting themselves up for a disappointment.

    Soon the conclusion will be helpless in the face of so much expectation.


    Could be the case, but personally I doubt that. Not long til we find out.

    Since we were 1st introduced to the 9th Doctor, the record shows that RTD, Collinson, Gardner & Raynor have consistently delivered. There have been a couple of less spectacular moments, but thats the worst you can really say. On the whole the last 3 years have been the proverbial dog's didgeridoos.

    Given what's happened before it (not just Utopia, but this -imho- whole stupendous series), I think they'll go out on a massive high (and/or a self preservation society style, monumental cliff-hanger).

    Time will tell, but my money's on a corker.

    Nothing dies of old age on Skaro!
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 09:13 PM EDT
    Ok...picking up where I left off.

    [Quote  by:  indiana_brian] Out of curiousity, if the Time Lords have technology to rewrite their genetic makeups, why would they change themselves into humans? Granted, there is the outward appearance, but the Doctor has encountered many other humanoid species, so why humans?? Is there a close relationship between humans and Time Lords? Are Time Lords nothing more than humans with some genetic enhancements? Or is it just the Doctor and the Master that change themselves into humans and could that be because they have some human factors in their dna which makes the conversion easier???


    Well, there is that whole bit when Romana regenerated and I think one of her choices was non-human (the short one). Of course, her voice was still Princess Astra's. Big Grin And I guess, regardless of the external appearance the two hearts and other bodily functions have to be the same



    [Quote  by:  Dr. Hoo]Now.. in that same thought, I DO think the TimeLords were responsible for the Master's predicament, I agree that it could have been a very effective punishment, but WHY leave the watch with him? Why not turn him into a kind gentle human and leave him somewhere WITHOUT the watch?!? No... I think the Master did this to escape the TimeLords and possibly the Time War as well.


    This is what I'm thinking. This was his disguise to hide out from the Time Lords and/or Time War. He would want the watch to return to being the Master, it makes no sense for someone to punish him but leave the watch. (and continuing through the thread, I'm not the only one who feels this way)

    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical]Unless it's just sorta happened while typing these responses, I was surprised no one mentioned on the Podcast or in this thread that, for lack of a better title, "The Master's Theme" or "The Saxon Tap" is actually just the baseline of the Doctor Who theme. It also could be interpreted as a sped-up repetition of the the last few notes of the original Master's theme from "Mind of Evil". That's very clever.


    After we kept seeing Yana hearing the drums in his head and then see him regenerate into the new Master, I started thinking the knocking on the table was some kind of continuation of that. He's "drumming" on the table with the drums in his head or something.

    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical] And doesn't anyone want them to amortize some of the proesthetics budget for Chantho across to future episodes? I'd love to visit this planet again next year, at a different point in its history. I'm somewhat amazed how much more I liked Chantho's prosthesis than Dalek Sec's, even though they're really rather similar. Perhaps the fault lies more with the actor. But then, as a big fan of Aayla Secura, I'm a sucker for a blue-skinned woman.


    I thought her make-up effects were outstanding. I had no problem buying into them, as opposed to the Manlek as Dave calls it. What was really funny with Chantho was, when I saw the actress out of make-up in Confidential I thought she was less attractive than when she was in make-up. Who is Aayla Secura? Is that the Diva from Fifth Element?

    This is getting long again. I'll break again and pick up again later. I'm still only up to page 7. Sheesh. Smile

    I'm going "Full Circle" and putting my avatar back to what it was when I first joined. :)
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 09:45 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Tardis-Knight]
    [Quote  by:  BadWolf]
    I think that so much is being read into this episode that many are setting themselves up for a disappointment.

    Soon the conclusion will be helpless in the face of so much expectation.


    Could be the case, but personally I doubt that. Not long til we find out.

    Since we were 1st introduced to the 9th Doctor, the record shows that RTD, Collinson, Gardner & Raynor have consistently delivered. There have been a couple of less spectacular moments, but thats the worst you can really say. On the whole the last 3 years have been the proverbial dog's didgeridoos.

    Given what's happened before it (not just Utopia, but this -imho- whole stupendous series), I think they'll go out on a massive high (and/or a self preservation society style, monumental cliff-hanger).

    Time will tell, but my money's on a corker.


    I don't disagree entirely but how many were disappointed by the Cyber/Dalek war closer for series two?

    I am not saying that the current production team do not deliver; rather that the anticipation causes an expectation which they sometimes don't meet.

    Personally I think people are over analyzing every frame of Utopia (and that is fun) but in the process over hyping their own expectations.

    Forget the shooty dog thing!
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 10:16 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Linquel] Who is Aayla Secura?
    Sorry for throwing the thread temporarily off track, but I gotta answer the man's question here. I mean, c'mon, look at my nick.

    Aayla Secura is an historic character in the Star Wars Expanded Universe, in that she was original to the comics but subsequently put into the movies. Although other characters have gotten much development in the EU, and maybe were referenced later in film, she's the only character to completely begin her life outside of George Lucas' brain, and then be included in a Star Wars film. She was a featured fighter at the Battle of Geonosis in Episode II, and later had a few lines and a particularly poignant death in Revenge of the Sith.

    Legend has it that Lucas saw this very image of her on the cover a comic book and immediately said, "Yep, I'll have her as one of the Jedi left standing at the end of Episode II."

    She was one of the main characters of the comic book series, Star Wars/Star Wars Republic, in which she received a very long and, to my mind, interesting history—mostly intertwined with her troubled Master, Quinlan Vos. That character is frequently sited as the other character that debuted in comics but then went to film, but in fact, he did participate in Episode I for all of one second, in the deep background of a shot on Tatooine.

    Instead of being a belly-dancing, well, whore (as Twi'leks were seen in Episode I) or a sycophant suckup to Jabba the Hutt (as we saw in Episode VI), she's a kick-ass Jedi. Basically, she comes from a race who have been established in the Star Wars universe as probably the least likely to become a Jedi—and yet she ended up being one of the most prominent. She's popular enough that there are several action figures, and the actor who portrayed her had a spot on the Star Wars convention circuit during the time that the prequel trilogy was in production. She's also featured in the Clone Wars cartoon series.

    Many fans have observed that if the Obi/Anakin relationship had had as much depth on screen as the Vos/Secura relationship did in comics, a lot of people would've been happier. But that's in my view not fair comment, because the Anakin/Obi story couldn't really follow the same path. To me, the Secura/Vos story is made better by the fact that its an inexact parallel to Anakan/Obi.
    Thank you. You may now return to Utopia.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Tuesday, June 19 2007 @ 11:34 PM EDT
    Here's the final stretch on notes and comments.

    [Quote  by:  rocko]I suppose I can see two explanations for the Professor persona: (1) it sounds very typical of this Doctor (or the way he's portrayed by RTD) to have put the Master (having reverted to a child-state by the TARDIS) on an isolated world with a new personality- even with the watch. (2) The Master did it to himself in order to lie low during the Time War and eventually ally himself with the victor, never suspecting that it would take his true personality so long to emerge.


    I personally don't think Yana did wake up as a naked child with only the watch. I think that's just an implanted memory. John Smith didn't really have a father named Sydney and a mother named Verity, again..just an implanted memory (and a very clever one Wink )

    [Quote  by:  sgb1975]Are we even sure it's the same watch? ...I assumed it was standard issue for Chameleon Arches at your local TARDIS manufacturing plant. Sorry, don't mean to sound silly, but just trying to make a point...anyway did The Doctor mention anything about the arch being unique to his TARDIS? Why couldn't The Master have arch'ed himself within his own TARDIS, and then create the Professor Yana persona?


    I agree. I also assumed his TARDIS had a handy chamelion arch complete with Gallifrean fob watch.

    [Quote  by:  tarashnat]

    Natch Ho


    Hey, now. Don't forget what happened to Don Imus.

    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical] Sorry for throwing the thread temporarily off track, but I gotta answer the man's question here. I mean, c'mon, look at my nick.


    thanks for the clue-in. As soon as you started describing the character, I was able to picture in my head who you were talking about (especially since the link you posted didn't work). I subsequently pulled up her Wikipedia entry and confirmed it.

    As much as I loved the Star Wars movies, I never read any of the comics. The only non-movie stuff I tried was the book Splinter of the Mind's Eye and that was years ago. I'll have to see if they're available in graphic novel format. It sounds interesting.

    And with that...I'm finally all caught up.

    I'm going "Full Circle" and putting my avatar back to what it was when I first joined. :)
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     Wednesday, June 20 2007 @ 09:26 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  sgb1975]
    [Quote  by:  daveac]You may well be right - when the 'remaining episodes' super trailer was show (because we were going to miss a week of Dr Who) - I commented in of of the threads the the very last scene was of the Doctor in his Tardis giving a very strange look.

    My comment was - and I'm going to put it in white text again:-

    It looked as though this wasn't the Doctor ie. that the Master had taken over the Doctor's body

    Cheers, daveac
    Are you referring to the trailer shown at the end of The Lazarus Experiment? Because that scene you're referring to has already been shown (in FoB when The Doctor was doling out his punishments to the Family.)


    OK - well I missed that connection - so that blows that theory out of the water.

    Cheers, daveac

    daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP, cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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