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     Home »  The David Tennant Era »  S3-Ep 13 'Last of the Time Lords'
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    S3-Ep 13 'Last of the Time Lords' Views: 15528
     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 06:19 AM EDT
    "Ummm, hello out there, are these Doctor Who forums? Are these fans of Doctor Who who are posting here?"


    I'm just asking b/c I too am somewhat surprised by all the less than impressed reactions of many folks out there who I thought were on the "home team". By that I mean folks who love Doctor Who. And again, I am not implying that we all have to agree that this was the greatest episode ever or a perfect and sound story, but come on, what are we comparing it to? The original Star Wars Trilogy? The Godfather? Ben-Hur? Or Doctor Who? Seriously, whether I just compare this to the post-2005 era or the entirety of all 'Who; No matter how I parse it, 'The Last of the Time Lords' has to be up there somewhere in the top tier of stories, it really does. Maybe not your dearest favorite or the one you want to tell everyone to run out and see, but it needs to be in the conversation of most important/significant/rather ambitious/(fill in what ever you like here) 'Who episodes ever.

    If you were one of those who have only been with Who since 2005, this episode was somewhat like your version of Troughton's War Games episode. I mean, sure you have heard of the Time War by now, but finally you get another time lord and some juicy glimpses of what all of the Gallifrey mumbo jumbo is all about. For new fans I think this Time Lord lore has become that much deeper.

    And for those of you familar with more of the classics. Besides the Daleks, The Master was the villian I recognized most as a child watching 'Who, but never was I truly afraid of him. Never once did it seem to me like my favorite time lord would be outwitted by the Master. It always seemed like Bond vs. Doctor Evil to me, the Master never stood a chance in the old days. But watching this episode as an adult, it wasn't hard for me to put myself back in to kid mode and think for the first time, "Gee, this Master guy is really starting to scare me." For once he seems like he really has beaten the Doctor. I think from a child's point-of-view it makes you so very, very sad to see the doctor reduced to Dobby mode. As an adult you might laugh, but man, I felt bad for the little fella, genuinely afraid for the Doctor. This version of the Master, love him or hate him, seemed far more genuinely sinister to me than any of his previous incarnations.

    And again, to those who poo-poo this episode, what in the world are you comparing it to that ranks it so low or mediocre in your mind? 'Logopolis'? 'The Daemons'? I mean come on. I'll grant that those could be considered classics of sorts (trust me I really like them), but in all honesty, they are still niche classics for a niche cult of Whovians. Try playing those episodes for the non-hardcore fan or a modern audience. The uninitiated are likely to fall into a comma after being exposed to that kind of mediocrity, a far cry by today's standards of entertainment. Episodes like this one are planting the seeds for legions of children who will replenish Doctor Who cultism for generations to come. 30 or so years from now when the children of today grow up, I think a few of them might agree that 'The Last of the Time Lords' was a milestone episode in the lore of Doctor Who previous and of that still to come. I think in time Simm's Master will be regarded as one of the classic performances in Doctor Who et al.



    Esco, "The Bachelor" has regenerated into Bullitt33!!!!
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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 06:27 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  BadWolf] Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

    As I said in a previous post this looks like it was all written before they knew whether there would be another series.

    Everything looked like they were tidying up loose ends just in case.

    Needless to say the Master will be back in the guse of whoever picked up his ring.

    Explanation for why the the Doctor always said to FOB "Hello old friend." and Martha ends as companion or not......

    The winding back of time was a bit like the shower scene from Dallas.


    I heard you also comment on this on the Live Podcast (great show as ever by the way) I don't think, judging by the ratings of the first two seasons and the Christmas specials, there was ever a chance of a fourth season not being picked up. The sales of the programme abroad coupled with the money the BBC get from the merchandising are so great there was always going to be a fourth season. MAYBE, there was a question as to whether RTD would stay for the fourth season and that is why you get this impression. RTD said in the commentary that they had no plans to pick up on the strange hand picking up The Master's ring but I don't believe this for a second. He said the Daleks would not feature in the second season and they did and I don't think RTD puts anything in the show without a reason!

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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 08:15 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Dalzo] RTD said in the commentary that they had no plans to pick up on the strange hand picking up The Master's ring but I don't believe this for a second. He said the Daleks would not feature in the second season and they did and I don't think RTD puts anything in the show without a reason!


    I hope this isn't so. I definately want the Master back, just not in a woman's body. LOL.

    http://themedusacascadegazette.blogspot.com/
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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 09:09 AM EDT
    [Quote I hope this isn't so. I definately want the Master back, just not in a woman's body. LOL.


    More likely that whoever picked up the ring will resurrect The Master. I like Louis' (I think he mentioned it on the Live podcast) idea that maybe Lucy was hypnotised by The Master to shoot him so that she could get the ring back at a later date. This is also why he was so keen for Martha's mother to shoot him. He planned it all the time... This would also explain why he was unwilling to activate the Black Holes in the ship but was apparently happy not to regenerate. I think this aould also not rule out John Simm returning to the role... Although I think this unlikely!

    EDIT: Fixed QUOTE tag — Taras

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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 09:19 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Magpie] The messianic tones always put me off - From the Face of Boe "giving his life to save everyone" earlier in the season to this finale with everyone's faith in The Doctor making him float around, Christ-like - with his arms out in a sort of walking-on-water pose - and then he cradles The Master "I forgive you" .... urghhh is it just because I'm an atheist that this annoys me?


    Nope, it's not just b/c you are an atheist. I'm pretty religious and it bothers me as well.

    supremacy is relative
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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 09:35 AM EDT
    Here is the news on Martha to start with: (from the bbc website)
    [Quote More Martha!

    Relax - she's coming back, and branching out too...

    While the final episode of Series Three, screened last Saturday , saw The Doctor's companion Martha leave to care for her devastated family, and to break the cycle of unrequited love she feels for The Doctor, the production team has now confirmed that the character is set to make a triumphant return in the fourth series.

    Freema Agyeman is also set to join the cast of Torchwood, where she will continue to play the character in three new episodes before returning to Doctor Who in the middle of the fourth series.

    As Doctor Who's Executive Producer and head writer, Russell T Davies notes: "Series three has gained outstanding reviews and Freema has been a huge part of that success, gaining rave notices for her portrayal of Martha. Now we are taking the character of Martha into brand new territory with a starring role in Torchwood".

    "I can't wait to start filming on Torchwood and the new series of Doctor Who," said Freema. "It's a huge new challenge for me and I'm delighted Russell has decided to expand the character of Martha Jones.'"


    So, the episode....

    I didn't like the reveal of Jack as the FoB. Not because I don't like the idea, but it just didn't make any sense why he all the sudden just started talking about his modeling days. yes, fine, he is aging and it maybe reminds him of his buffer days, but still it just seemed like an add on. I imagined RTD at his computer thinking "how am I going to get this reveal in? Where can I put it -- nothing makes sense! well, I guess I'll just throw it in at the end."

    I wish we'd gotten to learn a bit more about Lucy. A companion driven crazy by witnessing the end of the universe? give me more! please!

    I didn't understand why the paradox machine took us back to after the president died. He was killed by a Toclafane, so isn't that in itself the start of the paradox? Or does the paradox not come until the toclafane start taking out 10% of the population? And where were those time cleaner-dudes we met in Father's Day to clean up the mess? Did the paradox machine keep them at bay as well?

    Just as it did in Family of Blood, the emotional acting kind of made me uncomfortable. I'm sure I'm just not mature enough to deal with it (or something) but I don't like my Doctor with too much humanity (for lack of a better term).

    When the Doctor hit the Titantic I remembered "Rose." Clive had a photo of #9 with a family that survived the Titantic, remember? Will the Doctor be running into his own time line?

    All that being said, I really did like the episode. I couldn't point to any reason why I do - not specifically, but I did like the tie up of the season, and I agree with Martha's reasons for taking a break from the action.

    supremacy is relative
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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 10:35 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  mad4plaid]

    I didn't understand why the paradox machine took us back to after the president died. He was killed by a Toclafane, so isn't that in itself the start of the paradox? Or does the paradox not come until the toclafane start taking out 10% of the population?


    I thought the start of the paradox was the openning of the rift above Earth.

    The one's that shot the President must have come back with the Master in the Doctor's Tardis.

    Cheers, daveac

    daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP, cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 11:01 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  The Bachelor] "Ummm, hello out there, are these Doctor Who forums? Are these fans of Doctor Who who are posting here?"

    I'm just asking b/c I too am somewhat surprised by all the less than impressed reactions of many folks out there who I thought were on the "home team". By that I mean folks who love Doctor Who.
    Just because we love Who doesn't mean we have to like what is shown to us each week. Without a little constructive criticism, the show will never get better. I've had the same reaction (albeit for a different reason) to a bunch of threads from earlier stories this season. How do people give Shakespeare Code, Gridlock, 42, and Sound of Drums 5 out of 5 groans, when I think they're probably 3, maybe 3.5 at best??? It makes we want to toss my computer out the window sometimes. Welcome to the world of internet discussion forums I keep telling myself. Sometimes I feel like sending a recommendation to Louis to turn off the forums for 24 hours after an episode airs because I find that, especially this season, I tend to be overly excited just to have new Who back on the air after all these years, but my love quickly fades when I realize that some/most of these stories have been mediocre. If I let a little time pass, then my forum posts become truer to how I actually felt about the episode, rather than gushing about how awesome it was. And, in fairness, the opposite holds true sometimes as well. Sometimes I seem to dislike an episode, but after a few hours or days it starts to warm up to me a little.

    [Quote  by:  The Bachelor]And again, I am not implying that we all have to agree that this was the greatest episode ever or a perfect and sound story, but come on, what are we comparing it to? The original Star Wars Trilogy? The Godfather? Ben-Hur? Or Doctor Who?
    I agree. The comparisons with non-Who are a bit far-fetched. If you want to compare it to those items you mention, I think you would have to compare the show as a whole, rather than an individual episode-by-episode basis.

    [Quote  by:  The Bachelor]Seriously, whether I just compare this to the post-2005 era or the entirety of all 'Who; No matter how I parse it, 'The Last of the Time Lords' has to be up there somewhere in the top tier of stories, it really does. Maybe not your dearest favorite or the one you want to tell everyone to run out and see, but it needs to be in the conversation of most important/significant/rather ambitious/(fill in what ever you like here) 'Who episodes ever.
    Not really. Save for a few people who were in the airship when time was rewound, nothing actually happened. Jack's back at Torchwood. Martha may/may not be gone. Yes, The Master probably isn't dead, but I think they blew it with the season-long Saxon hype going into the episode only to "kill" him off. They'd have been better off letting him escape somehow...or better yet, remain a prisoner in the TARDIS like The Doctor wanted..imagine the story possibilities then!!! But instead, we're going to get some one-line explanation about how The Master transferred his consciousness into his ring, or into Lucy a moment before he died, and that's how he's able to come back...whether or not it's Simm again remains to be seen.

    [Quote  by:  The Bachelor]This version of the Master, love him or hate him, seemed far more genuinely sinister to me than any of his previous incarnations.
    Again disagree. Delgado and Ainley seemed more sinister to me, if for no other reason than they lacked the comedic element that Simm brought to the character. Tough to be silly one moment, and cold-blooded the next (unless you're The Joker from Batman). Plus he's only had 1 storyline so far versus a heckuva lot more for Delgado/Ainley...kinda like saying Daniel Craig is the best Bond actor ever after just 1 movie...

    [Quote  by:  The Bachelor]And again, to those who poo-poo this episode, what in the world are you comparing it to that ranks it so low or mediocre in your mind? 'Logopolis'? 'The Daemons'?
    I agree with your point here, too. When I come up with a TARDIS groan rating for a new episode, I'm only comparing against other new series stories. Comparing old and new is really like the whole apples and oranges thing.

    [Quote  by:  The Bachelor]Try playing those episodes for the non-hardcore fan or a modern audience. The uninitiated are likely to fall into a comma after being exposed to that kind of mediocrity, a far cry by today's standards of entertainment.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head as to the biggest gripe we have with the new series. Doctor Who has always been a children's program. Not in a Sesame Street/SpongeBob Squarepants kind of way, but in a general fantasy-adventure sense. Unfortunately, 10-year olds are not paying cable-TV bills or buying DVDs...their parents and other working adults are. And it's pretty clear from the romance angles and Torchwood tie-ins that they're targeting a different audience beyond the classic Who fan. Perhaps the most common beef we have with the new series is the lack of off-Earth stories. Sci-fi shows have typically had a stigma attached to them that only nerds and geeks watch them. Perhaps by keeping the TARDIS crew on Earth in familiar surroundings, the producers are trying to avoid a space-opera type program, thus making the suspension of disbelief more achievable?

    [Quote  by:  The Bachelor]Episodes like this one are planting the seeds for legions of children who will replenish Doctor Who cultism for generations to come. 30 or so years from now when the children of today grow up, I think a few of them might agree that 'The Last of the Time Lords' was a milestone episode in the lore of Doctor Who previous and of that still to come.
    Based on the AI figures I've read for the episode, this seems to be true. Although I hope that they don't consider LotTL to be their "Genesis" or such...

    I hope you don't think I'm breaking down your post line-by-line to bash or refute things. There was a lot said, and you bring up a lot of points worthy of further discussion...some of which I agree with and some I do not.

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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 11:14 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  mad4plaid]
    I wish we'd gotten to learn a bit more about Lucy. A companion driven crazy by witnessing the end of the universe? give me more! please!
    I'm quite sure we haven't seen the last of Lucy. I mean is there anybody else that hand picking up The Master's ring could've been?

    [Quote  by:  mad4plaid]I didn't understand why the paradox machine took us back to after the president died. He was killed by a Toclafane, so isn't that in itself the start of the paradox? Or does the paradox not come until the toclafane start taking out 10% of the population?
    I understood it to be that the paradox started when the rift opened and the billions of Toclafane started pouring in. But I'm not sure if they explained how those other few came through prior to the rift opening...

    [Quote  by:  mad4plaid]And where were those time cleaner-dudes we met in Father's Day to clean up the mess? Did the paradox machine keep them at bay as well?
    A very good point...I'd forgotten about them. Would've been very cool to see them appear, but I suppose the Paradox Machine could've kept them at bay as well.

    [Quote  by:  mad4plaid]When the Doctor hit the Titantic I remembered "Rose." Clive had a photo of #9 with a family that survived the Titantic, remember? Will the Doctor be running into his own time line?
    If I remember correctly, the photo showed The Doctor with a family as it stayed behind as Titanic left port...I don't think The Doctor was ever on board.

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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 11:22 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  sgb1975]If I remember correctly, the photo showed The Doctor with a family as it stayed behind as Titanic left port...I don't think The Doctor was ever on board.


    In the very next episode, the Doctor relates how he was on the Titanic and got stranded atop the iceberg ("It wasn't half cold").

    This might be our first multi-doctor story of the new series. Or maybe not.

    tawm.net: read it. (please?)
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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 12:04 PM EDT
    The general audience seems to have loved this episode. It got an AI of 88, matching the series high ("S&J"). It bested Cornell's two-parter by 2 points, and Moffat's entry by a point.

    While it didn't beat either previous finale ("Doomsday" and "Parting of the Ways" both got an 89); the stories as a whole were virtually tied, due to lower appreciation for the previous first parts.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 12:29 PM EDT
    Oh and time reset itself after the Toclafane off the POTUS-elect.

    How many time has RTD watched Death of a President?

    -cs™

    http://twitter.com/Smittmaestro
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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 12:36 PM EDT
    Well, it makes sense that it would've reset to 8:02, which was after the president bought it. That's the moment the paradox machine was really switched on and working.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 12:44 PM EDT
    You're right...

    So how creepy did Mini-Doctor look?

    So how long before Character Options makes a figure of that?

    Imagine if Tom Baker looked that way in Leisure Hive!

    I agree with DS an excellent season/series finale.

    -cs™

    http://twitter.com/Smittmaestro
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     Monday, July 02 2007 @ 02:00 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  sgb1975]Just because we love Who doesn't mean we have to like what is shown to us each week. Without a little constructive criticism, the show will never get better. I've had the same reaction (albeit for a different reason) to a bunch of threads from earlier stories this season. How do people give Shakespeare Code, Gridlock, 42, and Sound of Drums 5 out of 5 groans, when I think they're probably 3, maybe 3.5 at best??? It makes we want to toss my computer out the window sometimes. Welcome to the world of internet discussion forums I keep telling myself. Sometimes I feel like sending a recommendation to Louis to turn off the forums for 24 hours after an episode airs because I find that, especially this season, I tend to be overly excited just to have new Who back on the air after all these years, but my love quickly fades when I realize that some/most of these stories have been mediocre. If I let a little time pass, then my forum posts become truer to how I actually felt about the episode, rather than gushing about how awesome it was. And, in fairness, the opposite holds true sometimes as well. Sometimes I seem to dislike an episode, but after a few hours or days it starts to warm up to me a little.
    I understand where you're coming from, but the point of the weekly podcasts and indeed the forum is largely to give a snapshot judgment: what did we feel about the episode initially? It's not really to record one's true and everlasting feelings.

    Added to that is the complication of the summary score (which, frankly, I could do without). Whether you give it numerically or verbally, there are a whole lot of factors that can go into one's summary. Some people "save the 5", believing that a bell curve across the season means they've been fair. This of course means that earlier episodes are at a disadvantage for no other reason than their broadcast order. Others try to judge each episode on its own merits, but this might tend to produce a series of scores that makes less sense if you stand back and look at the whole season.

    It's also true that a 5 is not a 5 is not a 5. That is, we don't rate things uniformly. If we were really being fair and above board, we'd have a little card on which we put all the categories of production: acting, lighting, grading, direction, plot, dialogue, etc. Each of these would be individually scored 1-5, then we'd take an average of all the scores to come up with the final.

    It's rather more laborious and less fun, but it would result in us all being more or less on the same page. As it is, anything in the world can affect the points we award something. Louis deducted a full point for a single element of the plot of "Last". But I had a similar plot problem with "Human Nature/Family of Blood", and I gave them a 5 anyway. Meanwhle, I know that "Code" had points taken away from it, across the board, by the poor realization of the witches' prosthetics. Not the plot, not the substance, just the way they looked. Clearly we're playing with a different set of cards than the one we deal to the classic series.

    My point is they really are snap judgments and that's what they should be. They're the starting point of the discussion about episodes, not the end. Had we been doing these things during Series 1, I feel quite certain that I would've absolutely trashed "The Long Game". But after a couple of years of struggling with that episode, what's apparent to me is that it's of much greater utility as a lynchpin of the overall season arcs than it ever could be as an individual episode. So, while it's still just a 2-3 on its own, the season as a whole would be very much poorer without it. Those kind of judgments aren't ones that can be made on these immediate, weekly Podshocks. But the Podshocks might start getting you thinking about how an episode, good or bad, fits into the larger context, and that's useful.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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