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     Home »  The David Tennant Era »  S4 Ep: 6 The Doctors Daughter [Spoilers]
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    S4 Ep: 6 The Doctors Daughter [Spoilers] Views: 6137
     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 12:47 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  sgb1975] - I 100% knew Jenny was going to die once they talked about taking her along in the TARDIS after they resolved the matter at hand. Anybody who wasn't sure of this can go ask "Lynda-with-a-Y" and Astrid....


    ...and Gwyneth, the original Pete Tyler, Margaret Blaine, Madame De Pompadour, Magpie, LINDA, and Ross Jenkins, (and of course, Rose Tyler!

    Another thing, i'm surprised no one has mentioned it, was the Doctor's 'I NEVER WOULD...' a very intense and powerful message, but isnt he forgetting the Time War, when he would, or General Staal's ship, he would...or Pompeii, he would, and that's just Doctor 10's tenure!
    Or am i maybe reading too much into it, and it's just a message for anti-gun-crime?

    Drink
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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 12:53 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  rocko]
    [Quote  by:  sgb1975]
    - Is it possible that these last 2 Martha stories have actually caused me to like her less? I was a fan of hers originally (much, much more so than Rose), but now I'm not so sure. That crying when the Hath drowned was just awful. No acting award coming her way anytime soon, except for maybe a Razzie. And somebody pointed out that she really served no purpose at all. So true. What did she do that dramatically impacted the story??? Answer: nothing.

    - I'm still unclear about why The Doctor had to break the teraforming globe to get it to work.

    - The bit at the end explaining why the TARDIS suddenly took off to get them here was crap. The only reason they did it was to bring along Martha before she could leave, but as I explained above, I'm not even sure why that happened.


    I have the feeling that, as in previous seasons (series), some of the plot points that now seem to be "pointless" (like aspects of the fob watch last year, etc.) may come back to haunt us in eps 12/13 this year.


    How about the fact that episode 12 still doesnt have a name?

    Drink
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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 01:29 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Louis]
    That's a great explanation of it. I suppose it would explain the clothes and makeup as well... well, at least the clothes. Why a being breed for the military would need non-camouflage makeup like the eyeliner Jenny was wearing is beyond me.


    Presumably the machines were never intended to produce soldiers in the first place. With whoever hacked them not being able to overide all of the original programming. Which was presumably intended to produce 61st century humans. Thus the makeup and lack of BDUs.

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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 02:14 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  sgb1975]. Unless somebody can point out canonical proof to the contrary, I don't consider Time Lords a race or species. I consider them "Gallifreyans-plus".


    The new series has made it clear on a number of separate occasions, across several different writers, that "Time Lord" is the name of the Doctor's species. Here are but a few specifics:

    "The End of the World"
    Jabe asks her "blackberry" to "identify species". The result? "Time Lord".

    "School Reunion"
    Mr. Finch (to the Doctor): "And what of the Time Lords? I always thought of you as such a pompous race."

    "Human Nature"
    This is the biggie. The entire plot revolves around Time Lord biology.

    The Doctor: "Those creatures are hunters. They can sniff out anyone. And me being a Time Lord — well, I'm unique. They can track me down across the whole of time and space." This alone utterly destroys the notion of "Time Lord" being a title. It's not like the villains of the piece can sniff out people with a good education. They're quite clearly tracking his biology. His Time Lord biology.

    Furthermore:

    The Doctor: "I have to stop being a Time Lord. I'm going to become human." (Subsequent business with Chameleon arch, "rewrit[ing] my biology", makes it even more clear Time Lord is a species.)


    "The Doctor's Daughter"
    This one isn't quite so direct as the others. If there really were a distinction between Gallifreyan and Time Lord, there were at least two instances where the script could have easily (and usefully) made a distinction: when the trio are jailed at the beginning and when Jenny "dies" at the end. "An echo of a Time Lord" is quite a different thing than "She might have Gallifreyan DNA but she's not a Time Lord". Plus, there's the whole thing of the Doctor expecting her to regenerate solely on the basis of genetics.


    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 03:08 PM EDT
    Last week I was in love with David Tennant's Doctor. This week I didn't even recognize him. It wasn't his acting, it was the writing. I've been trying to put my finger on it...

    I think it's this - I found myself feeling "morally superior" to to him in relation to his initial snarky behavior towards Jenny. The Doctor is fallible physically, but he is the hero and as soon as I start feeling "better than him" I lose some of the magic.

    Secondly, When he did the whole gun/"The Man Who NEver WOuld!!!" Screaming - I thought, crikey, this guy really is totally unstable! I mean, I understand he saw his whole planet burn & lost everybody - but this outburst seemed just far enough out of character to put me off. (Same as with the punishments for the family of blood, seemed out of character for the doctor to be so vindictive.)

    As for the eyeliner & eyelashes - anybody else think about the story people in Fahrenheit 451 roughing it in the woods with their big doe eyelashes?

    If Worzel Gummidge and the Third Doctor had a fist fight - who would win?
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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 03:20 PM EDT
    I do understand that many people felt the Doctor was acting out of character but I sort of think that was the point. It was an indication of just how much pressure he was under.
    Worse than despair, often is the hint of hope and the fear of grief all over again. the Doctor obviously felt more grief than he could ever express with the demise of his family. He talks of the hole that was left in his life. His reaction to Jenny is totally normal in that:
    a) part of him must despise this copy that can never truly replace the family he lost
    b) part of him is scared of accepting her in case she does start to replace his lost family - and the ensuing grief
    and
    c) the fear of accepting her in case he does lose her again.
    Despite this negative attiude, however, he does start to accept her because that is the person that he is. His reaction at the end with the gun is normal. Which of us would not be tainted by such anger at a murdered child. The fact that he overcomes this speaks of a strength of character that not feeling the anger at all never would.
    I love the fact that the Doctor is imperfect - he always has been. It makes his actions so much more admirable in the long run.

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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 03:58 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Idiom]
    I love the fact that the Doctor is imperfect - he always has been. It makes his actions so much more admirable in the long run.


    Yeah but he's not exactly a "flawed" hero, nor should he be in my opinion. Captain Jack is a "flawed" hero. I guess it worked for many of the viewers but for me a line was crossed. All I know is that I felt like they'd broken the 180 degree rule but not with the camera, with his character.


    (this is what I mean by 180' rule)

    If Worzel Gummidge and the Third Doctor had a fist fight - who would win?
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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 04:11 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  stjohnny]
    Another thing, i'm surprised no one has mentioned it, was the Doctor's 'I NEVER WOULD...' a very intense and powerful message, but isnt he forgetting the Time War, when he would, or General Staal's ship, he would...or Pompeii, he would, and that's just Doctor 10's tenure!
    Or am i maybe reading too much into it, and it's just a message for anti-gun-crime?
    Well, the question is what he would never do. I think he's speaking in a very limited sense here. He would never kill out of revenge. And that's pretty consistent across both original and new series.

    The big, thematic question of the episode is Jenny's line, "How are we different?" He fumbles the answer early in the episode, but this speech at the end is his clear response. He is a soldier who will kill, but not just to settle a score. Killing is a final option, to be done as a matter of genuine defense.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 04:21 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Magpie] Yeah but he's not exactly a "flawed" hero, nor should he be in my opinion. Captain Jack is a "flawed" hero. I guess it worked for many of the viewers but for me a line was crossed. All I know is that I felt like they'd broken the 180 degree rule but not with the camera, with his character.
    He's a totally flawed character. He's a thief and a scoundrel. He is, as Donna quite rightly said, "the most anomalous man I know". Especially in the new series. He's gone from the bad boy of Time Lord society to their last remaining champion. He's the enforcer of rules he's spent a lifetime flouting. He's a convicted and sentenced criminal. Granted, one who was given time off for good behavior. But he's played each side of his home world off the middle for ages.

    Of course humans (and by extension, we) like him and tend to think of him as a ministering angel, but, c'mon, he's not much "better" a person than a Han Solo-whipped-by-the-goodness-of-the-Skywalkers.

    Amd let's face it, devoid of human companionship, the potential darkness of his character is positively frightening. You're looking at him through Rose-colored glasses. Take a peep through Donna/Romana/Barbara's lenses.

    For every action there's at least two versions of the result. After all, what we see in "The End of the World" is the triumphant salvation of Rose. What is merely implied is the complete mess the Doctor's made of the Earth below. Continents shifted; surely millions (if not billions) of people died. All because the Doctor thought he was doing the right thing by shutting down The Editor and "Max" in "The Long Game". He's hardly infallible. He's doing the best he can and is often possessed of a superhuman morality, but Clive, early Mickey and Nurse Redfern assessments of him are absolutely fair: death and destruction do follow the Doctor. His mere presence is often the reason that jeopardy is brought to innocents in the first place.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 04:31 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  stjohnny]
    [Quote  by:  sgb1975] - I 100% knew Jenny was going to die once they talked about taking her along in the TARDIS after they resolved the matter at hand. Anybody who wasn't sure of this can go ask "Lynda-with-a-Y" and Astrid....

    ...and Gwyneth, the original Pete Tyler, Margaret Blaine, Madame De Pompadour, Magpie, LINDA, and Ross Jenkins, (and of course, Rose Tyler!

    I think you slightly missed my point (unless I'm the one missing yours). I'm not only saying that these two characters inevitably die, but that they die after it had been hinted that they would join the crew of the TARDIS...that seems to almost be the kiss of death in DW, just like in horror movies when 2 kids start making out - you just know there's some psycho dude with an axe right around the corner ready to interrupt them.

    Aside from MDP (and Rose because she isn't dead in the traditional sense), I don't think any of those characters with tragic ends from your list were actually promised a spot in the TARDIS, like Lynda from TPotW and Astrid from VotD.

    If you think about the 3 major companions from the new series (Rose, Martha, Donna), their status with regards to travelling with The Doctor wasn't really cemented until the very end of their respective episode in which they joined him...

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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 04:46 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  sgb1975]
    I think you slightly missed my point (unless I'm the one missing yours). I'm not only saying that these two characters inevitably die, but that they die after it had been hinted that they would join the crew of the TARDIS...that seems to almost be the kiss of death in DW, just like in horror movies when 2 kids start making out - you just know there's some psycho dude with an axe right around the corner ready to interrupt them.
    I think it's the kiss of death only because we know cast lists prior to watching the episodes. If you went into the episodes totally cold, you wouldn't know better. Of course, because you know that Georgia Moffet isn't on the cast list for subsequent episodes, she must die—or something. It's not really a trope or a convention (like two unknown kids makin out in the middle of nowhere in a horror movie) that if you get invited into the TARDIS and you're not the current companion that you must die; it's just that we've been spoiled about the behind-the-scenes aspects of the future.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 05:01 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical]
    [Quote  by:  sgb1975]
    I think you slightly missed my point (unless I'm the one missing yours). I'm not only saying that these two characters inevitably die, but that they die after it had been hinted that they would join the crew of the TARDIS...that seems to almost be the kiss of death in DW, just like in horror movies when 2 kids start making out - you just know there's some psycho dude with an axe right around the corner ready to interrupt them.
    I think it's the kiss of death only because we know cast lists prior to watching the episodes. If you went into the episodes totally cold, you wouldn't know better. Of course, because you know that Georgia Moffet isn't on the cast list for subsequent episodes, she must die—or something. It's not really a trope or a convention (like two unknown kids makin out in the middle of nowhere in a horror movie) that if you get invited into the TARDIS and you're not the current companion that you must die; it's just that we've been spoiled about the behind-the-scenes aspects of the future.


    I'm with sgb, she was doomed right from the off! We've seen it a thousand times before, so much so that they parodied it from Lethal Weapon on the Simpsons!
    five more days till retirement...

    P.S. i did get your point sgb, i was just making examples of fatal cast members, but most sincerely, Rose "We're always going to travel together" Tyler!

    Drink
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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 05:07 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical]I think it's the kiss of death only because we know cast lists prior to watching the episodes. If you went into the episodes totally cold, you wouldn't know better. Of course, because you know that Georgia Moffet isn't on the cast list for subsequent episodes, she must die—or something. It's not really a trope or a convention (like two unknown kids makin out in the middle of nowhere in a horror movie) that if you get invited into the TARDIS and you're not the current companion that you must die; it's just that we've been spoiled about the behind-the-scenes aspects of the future.

    That's the thing, though. This season and last I haven't paid attention to cast lists for future episodes nor even the titles of future eps for that matter. It has more to do with the pattern of these characters that meet tragic ends, having been invited to join the TARDIS mid-way through an episode. I will say I've been unable to avoid some rumors about possible cast inclusions for this season's finale, but it's by no means a complete cast, and to be honest with all of the rumors floating around, I'm not even sure how much of it may be true. I'm not sure I've explained it all that good, but I truly just had a gut feeling that when Jenny got the ok, she was done for.

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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 05:57 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical] ... He's a totally flawed character. He's a thief and a scoundrel. He is, as Donna quite rightly said, "the most anomalous man I know". Especially in the new series. He's gone from the bad boy of Time Lord society to their last remaining champion. He's the enforcer of rules he's spent a lifetime flouting. He's a convicted and sentenced criminal. ...


    David Tennant's Doctor is NOT a thief and/or a Scoundrel.

    Seriously, he says (with contempt) "She came out of that MACHINE" huh? Does that even sound like something the Doctor would say? The man who's "seen it all" ?? not to me. Moreover, it might be the first and only time we've ever seen David Tennant's Doctor with SHIFTY EYES. That's right, extreme uncomfortable close up with his eyes shifting around guiltily. Is that even consistent with any Doctor Who episode of the new series or any old ones I can remember?? Shifty, guilty eyes? I don't think so. And we've seen The Doctor making tough decisions, feeling anguish, remembering horrors etc... No, sorry I didn't feel like I was peering into the depths of The Doctor's soul, more like watching David Tennant impersonate himself playing the Doctor's twin behaving badly.

    Later when he tells Donna he's had a daughter before, that "feels right"... but not the scene in the cell.

    There's a difference between having flaws and being a "flawed hero" - I certainly don't watch the show expecting the Doctor to be some kind of angel but what I don't expect is for him to 1. act out of character (shifty eyes) or have a nervous breakdown, i.e. walk over to a gun, pick it up off the ground, and pretend like he's going to shoot somebody point blank.

    ok I've spent faaar to long posting on this episodeSmile I think I shall go have some dinner!

    If Worzel Gummidge and the Third Doctor had a fist fight - who would win?
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     Monday, May 12 2008 @ 07:07 PM EDT
    Ok, I'm just making a brief entry now and I'll go back and read through the thread later replying to other posts. I thought that was a pretty weak episode. Maybe it's because I'm all jetlagged from my flight back from Germany. But especially the way it ended, it just felt like a lame attempt at setting up another spin-off show. It also didn't make any sense for the TARDIS and the fighting-hand to react the way they did when Jenny wasn't even created yet. I didn't get how Martha was supposed to be understandng the Hath creature. I wasn't sure if we were supposed to assume she was getting a TARDIS translation even though we (the audience) weren't or if she was just being very intuitive or empathic. And what is with the weird color schemes in the last three episodes? It's like when Joel Schumacher took over the Batman movies from Tim Burton. I'm really interested to see if other people liked it. To me the only thing that kept me watching was the cuteness factor of Georgia Moffett (and I still can't decide which I like better, her as a blonde in the show or as a redhead in the Confidential).

    /-edit to add replies to comments-/

    [Quote  by:  DrWho001]I was upset when she was shot. But then after the Tardis had gone, she came back to life. Obviously a combo of the Terraforming and the Timelord DNA used to make her.


    Very Star Trek III: The Search for Spock. [and I see Dave C. beat me to the Trek reference]

    [Quote  by:  Magpie]I thought the 7 day biblical/disputed "holy land" stuff was totally cringeworthy. And then to find out they were really battling a computer pyramid the whole time??? what!?!? Oh sorry, that was The Armageddon Factor.


    I could easily have quoted Magpie's whole post but I'll just respond to the highlights. That Armageddon Factor feel also hit me. Also, wasn't there a very similar Trek TOS episode with two sides fighting by computer or something?

    [Quote  by:  Magpie]Then I don't know if anybody noticed it but there was a super-awkward cut when Donna & Martha were talking, right after Donna says she'll follow the doctor forever, they go in for a hug but the shot didn't look right, it seemed like they cut out some piece of dialogue and weren't able to patch it together properly so just kind of, stitched it up, sent it off, and hoped for the best. I should really watch again to make sure but initial reaction is... ugh, I feel embarrassed for them!


    I noticed that edit, too, but assumed it was a flaw in the version of the show I acquired. Maybe someone else can confirm or deny if it was in the broadcast version.

    [Quote  by:  Magpie]I hate to be so harsh but really I'm disappointed. I am generally soooo easy to please but there shall be no thumbs up from me on this one! No sireee.


    I'm actually a little less than thrilled overall this series, with the exception of Pompeii which I really liked and maybe the Ood story.

    [Quote  by:  rocko] I noticed that bad cut, too. I wonder if that was in the original BBC airing, or maybe it had something to do with the specific "red-eye flight" I took to see it? (Good old "MM" airlines!)


    I see we were on the same flight. Smile

    [Quote  by:  rocko]My wife suggested "new teen spin-off series?" when she saw Jenny flying off in her ship. ??


    Ok, I wasn't the only one to get that feeling.

    [Quote  by:  stjohnny] Those lasers?!? They reminded me of that scene in the movie Galaxy Quest when they need to get past those metal stomping things! Why were they there? Who put them there? What purpose did they solve?


    Yeah, that was straight out of Resident Evil by way of Galaxy Quest. And what with the gas firing rifles they used in the production. Those looked horrible, too.

    [Quote  by:  That Neil Guy] Would you rather rewatch this one or Fear Her?

    I'd choose this one every time...


    I really would have to think about it. I think possibly Fear Her, except that Jenny is so damn cute.

    [Quote  by:  rocko]I agree with Darth that there has never been any distinction to my knowledge between the phrases "Time Lord" and "Gallifreyan", and I imagine that it's your biology, and not your place of birth that determines whether or not you will regenerate!


    Ok, it's been ages since I've seen Invasion of Time, but weren't all of the "savage" people living outside the city not Time Lords? I was always under the impression that they were Gallifreyans without being Time Lords.

    [Quote  by:  sgb1975]Is it possible that these last 2 Martha stories have actually caused me to like her less? I was a fan of hers originally (much, much more so than Rose), but now I'm not so sure. That crying when the Hath drowned was just awful. No acting award coming her way anytime soon, except for maybe a Razzie. And somebody pointed out that she really served no purpose at all. So true. What did she do that dramatically impacted the story??? Answer: nothing.


    Yeah, I'd have to say that seeing her in Torchwood and series 4 has actually caused me to like her less than I used to. But as much as I liked Donna this series, even she didn't do much for me this ep. Maybe it really is the jetlag.

    I'm going "Full Circle" and putting my avatar back to what it was when I first joined. :)
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