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     Home »  The David Tennant Era »  S4e9 Forest of the Dead [Spoilers]
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    S4e9 Forest of the Dead [Spoilers] Views: 4925
     Monday, June 09 2008 @ 09:06 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  doogie448]
    [Quote  by:  Fairport] Somebody help me and please forgive me if this question has already been covered...

    When River Song first talks to the Doctor in Episode 8, I thought she was assuming that this Doctor was in a future "regenerative" form until she noticed how young his eyes looked. Did anybody else get that impression? I didn't think she recognized him physically, so much as recognized his "presence" and Doctor-like demeanor.

    By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed the episode, but I'll review it after a second viewing.


    Sarah Jane said the same thing about the eyes in School Reunion. Maybe that's how you recognize him after regenerations.


    I totally took it as being about the "eyes" of the Doctor. Watch Time Crash again... the Tenth Doctor tells the Fifth Doctor (when he's trying to convince him who he is) to look into his eyes.

    Check out HOO on WHO, my podcast devoted to the review of Classic series Doctor Who DVD's. http://www.hooonwho.com
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     Monday, June 09 2008 @ 09:59 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Magpie]So... do you think Donna wound up pocketing the book? Or has it been left there for some baddie to find?
    I don't think Donna took the book, but I think this ending would've been a lot better than it was if they showed somebody picking up the book after The Doctor and Donna left. Maybe it'd be the same hand that took The Master's ring last year, maybe it would be somebody different. But I'm surprised that's something the Doctor would leave laying around. People could do some serious damage with that diary, and his Journal of Impossible Things.

    [Quote  by:  cybercolin]I thought the story fell well short of Steven Moffatt's eariler works. But to be fair that standard is almost impossible to keep up.
    ...
    I can bet you, if RTD or anyone else had wrote this episode, the vast majorty of DW fans will be panning it. It reminds me when Helen Raynor wrote two AVERAGE (not bad!) episodes last year, her two episodes this year (in my view) have been the best this eeries. I don't think the word 'fickle' is enough to describe some DW 'fans'!
    A good point. I thought last week's episode was weaker than this one, but brought up the point that I may have liked it more, had there not been all of the Moffat-taking-over-for-RTD hype right before part 1. That publicity set the bar unreasonably high to live up to expectations.

    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical]It better not be a "new" Doctor. That'll retroactively give this story serious continuity problems. There has to be at least one (more) 10th/River story for River's recognition to make sense. And from the episode commentary, that's what seems to be coming, maybe as soon as 2009.
    I'm afraid of this as well. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going on the assumption that she and Tennant's Doctor get together at some point in the future (as opposed to a future regeneration Doctor). He obviously feels strongly for her, perhaps even moreso than Rose. From what's been talked about in the rumor mill, Tennant's tenure (say that 5 times fast) is probably going to end either at the end of '09s 4 mini-stories, or perhaps early in '10 when Moffat takes over. So if Alex Kingston is going to appear, we're going to get at most, what, a handful of stories to explain their relationship? It took almost 2 full seasons to build up Rose and The Doctor. Unless maybe they've just set the groundwork for "filler" stories (a la Big Finish).

    [Quote  by:  Fairport]River Song is now living a matrix-like life inside the hard drive? Is she stuck there for eternity? If so, shouldn't she have been given the choice between a life inside the computer and death?
    Good point. Unless the computer had some concept of aging and death, I suppose the people would be immortal...which isn't all it's cracked up to be, as The Doctor should've learned from Rassilon.

    - Can't a (future) companion get a proper death? Say what you want about Adric, but at least his character went out with a bang. No pun intended.

    - The relationship between the girl and the library was predictable. No surprises there.

    - I liked the time-travel scenario of The Doctor meeting somebody who has already met him at some point in his future. This could provide some very good stories, and will be interesting to see if, in fact, we see Alex Kingston in the future.

    - Had it not been for hinting at the relationship between The Doctor and River in this story, they probably could've squeezed everything into a single episode.

    - I liked part 2 better than part 1. Waited until now to give grades for last week. Last week 3 groans, this week: 4. Overall 3.5.

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     Monday, June 09 2008 @ 03:45 PM EDT
    On one site I visit daily, they had a link to this today. Thought it fitting:
    here

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     Tuesday, June 10 2008 @ 08:02 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Fairport]
    [Quote  by:  daveac]
    [Quote  by:  Fairport] Somebody help me and please forgive me if this question has already been covered...

    When River Song first talks to the Doctor in Episode 8, I thought she was assuming that this Doctor was in a future "regenerative" form until she noticed how young his eyes looked. Did anybody else get that impression? I didn't think she recognized him physically, so much as recognized his "presence" and Doctor-like demeanor.

    By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed the episode, but I'll review it after a second viewing.


    Well she wasn't 'surprised' by his looks - and in Episode 9 she only says he had a different hair-cut and suit - not that he was a 'changed' man.

    Cheers, daveac


    But she had earlier said that this Doctor was not "her Doctor". I thought she was speaking of a later regeneration, thus "her Doctor" got a different hair cut and suit, not the 10th Doctor. You could be completely right though, Dave. I need to see these episodes again.


    I thought for sure I heard her say something about how he looked older when SHE knew him. Like he'd regenerated into an older form.

    Sean.

    One solid hope is worth a cartload of uncertainties.
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     Tuesday, June 10 2008 @ 08:09 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Sabalon] On one site I visit daily, they had a link to this today. Thought it fitting:
    here


    Heh. That graphic looks like the promo for the animated "Pac Man" movie. :-)

    Sean.

    One solid hope is worth a cartload of uncertainties.
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     Tuesday, June 10 2008 @ 12:55 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  seanhuxter]
    [Quote  by:  Sabalon] On one site I visit daily, they had a link to this today. Thought it fitting:
    here


    Heh. That graphic looks like the promo for the animated "Pac Man" movie. :-)

    Sean.


    Yeah, I proudly own that shirt - and wear it often. Travis - the guy who designed it - is cool as hell. Great guy. Wore that at Disneyworld last Spring and mortified some parents/kids with it, evidently. Tah hah.

    On to more relevant discussion - this 2nd half was very good, but as some have said, not sure it all works for me when it's all said and done.

    I was a little thrown, too, by how River can potentially still do all these things in the Doctor's future with him, since it seemed to me by going back and dying to save all the folks floating in CAL's hard drive, she effectively altered her own timeline and now is "technically" dead. Yes - he managed to save her in a sense, but still - if she's "semi-alive" within CAL in what is effectively the past, that screwed up all of what she "already did" in the future, yes? Ah, whatever - wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey, I know...

    Still - the Doc leaving the diary at the end was absolute rubbish - talk about senseless and exceedingly dangerous - I just thought it would've made more sense to destroy it, if nothing else - the blackmail potential in it that could be weaponized against him by anyone willing would be seemingly endless, to a degree - enough to seriously make things difficult for him over some time, anyway. Oh well - whatever, once again...

    Still, in catching a friend up on part 1 with "Silence," we watched the whole thing as we dove straight into part 2 afterwards, and I will say - the entire story played quite well in one sitting as an epic-length event that felt quite right - the pace of the Vashta taking a backseat in the second half felt a little less offensive with the whole shee-bang all at once, opposed to watching part 2 on it's own merit a week later. Just felt more justified in one round, for pacing reasons and all that jazz.

    All in all, a good 2-parter for me - but based on my feelings above, as well as some observations pointed out that I'm not even going to get into (like Mohan's solid points), I'll agree with many that this was far from a perfect home-run in the end. Maybe "Blink" just set the bar too high. As exciting as the Moff's upcoming run will be, I worry that we're all going to expect "Blink" quality for at least half of the season come 2010. Maybe this good, but not "bleeding great" 2-parter, was the needed wake-up call to not get our hopes up for absolute perfection all season long. It will come in doses - just not an overdose, I feel. Of all that he's done for new-Who thus far, I'd rank this my least favorite of his work. Not saying it isn't good - just not as good as the rest, IMO. Maybe repeated viewings down the road will help - that worked wonders for the Master 3-parter from the end of last season. However - it's done nothing for "The Doctor's Daughter" this year. Razz

    Human Biological Metacrisis = Bite Me, RTD.
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     Tuesday, June 10 2008 @ 01:13 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Magpie]
    Makes you wonder though - would your rather hedge your bets with the afterlife or be imprisoned indefinitely with a few mates in a computer simulation?


    Oh the latter, deffo!

    Drink
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     Tuesday, June 10 2008 @ 01:14 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am]Maybe this good, but not "bleeding great" 2-parter, was the needed wake-up call to not get our hopes up for absolute perfection all season long.
    I think series 3 already sent us that wake-up call loud and clear.

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     Tuesday, June 10 2008 @ 01:37 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am]
    I was a little thrown, too, by how River can potentially still do all these things in the Doctor's future with him, since it seemed to me by going back and dying to save all the folks floating in CAL's hard drive, she effectively altered her own timeline and now is "technically" dead.


    Simple really, well sorta. Lets take it read that River Song is 45 during this story (Alex Kingston's age). Lets also assume the Doctor is 942 - just to humor Douglass Adams.

    Now, for all of Rivers adventures to happen with the Doctor, they have to happen in her personal past and the Doctors personal future. So, she may have met the Doctor for the first time when she was 36 and he was 987. So that gives her 9 years of memories and adventures in her timeline with the Doctor.

    She said something in the first episode about knowing it was not going to be easy with a time traveller, so perhaps the Doc had was 1024 the second time they met, and her still 36. Then the third time, she was 37 and he could have been 993. As he put it "Things don't always happen to me in the right sequence."

    This is one of the few times this has been done this way in the show. One thing that always bugged me about The Master stories is that the personal timelines of The Doctor and The Master seem to be in sync. You never had the Master showing up having done something knowing what the Doctor was going to do (Curse of the Fatal Death aside.) What's to say that Jack, The Master, or River Song couldn't appear, tell the Doctor "Wow...we just saved Arakkis and defeated the bad guy together." and then say "oh..that hasn't happened yet for you...but when it does, remember, press the red button." Paradox galore!


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     Tuesday, June 10 2008 @ 02:44 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Sabalon] One thing that always bugged me about The Master stories is that the personal timelines of The Doctor and The Master seem to be in sync.


    I always had the impression that the Time Lords' time line was sacrosanct and always ran in sync - they operated within/ around/through the time lines of others but were the one constant - which is what gave them (they believed) the right to "lord" it over the other non-time travelling races.
    However, one timey-wimey problem that have buggeed me lately is the matter of the Daleks. Ok so the Doctor wipes them out during the Time War but does mean effectively that they are wiped out from existence from every moment in time or do they still exist trapped in a unmoveable timeline prior to the climax of the Time War?

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     Tuesday, June 10 2008 @ 03:02 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Idiom]However, one timey-wimey problem that have buggeed me lately is the matter of the Daleks. Ok so the Doctor wipes them out during the Time War but does mean effectively that they are wiped out from existence from every moment in time or do they still exist trapped in a unmoveable timeline prior to the climax of the Time War?

    Within "this" universe, the Daleks were removed comepletely, except where they weren't...

    Daleks don't accept apologies! YOU WILL BE EXTERMINATED!
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     Tuesday, June 10 2008 @ 03:05 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  sgb1975]
    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am]Maybe this good, but not "bleeding great" 2-parter, was the needed wake-up call to not get our hopes up for absolute perfection all season long.
    I think series 3 already sent us that wake-up call loud and clear.


    Series 3 was ok in my book. None of them have been perfect, and none of them ever will be - even with Moffat in charge - his latest story proves that. And for whatever faults people have with Series 3, at least it doesn't contain the mediocre back-to-back double dose of "Love and Monsters" and "Fear Her" (and I'm being polite there on the mediocre label).

    The weakest stories in Year 3 of the revival far outweigh the worst from Year 2 or Eccleston's run, IMO. Everyone loves to hate on Helen Raynor and her "Daleks in the Big Apple" story, but seriously - that's still above and beyond anything with rubbish Slitheen farting up a storm - Pigmen and all. Series 3 has been one of the best of all the runs thus far - even with "Manlek." Derivative writing in some ways or not, even "The Shakespeare Code," "The Lazarus Experiment," and "42" were better than average viewing, compared to the limp spots in the 2 years prior. I don't think there's an episode in Series 3 I actually out-and-out dislike - the weakest to me is still the middle of the Master's 3-part arc, "The Sound of Drums," due to Jim Carrey taking control of John Simm for one episode.

    For what it's worth, this year has been my favorite of all of them thus far - outside of "Partners in Crime" (sort of ok, but... yawn) and "The Doctor's Daughter" (utter garbage, frankly).

    Human Biological Metacrisis = Bite Me, RTD.
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     Tuesday, June 10 2008 @ 03:06 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  tarashnat] Within "this" universe, the Daleks were removed comepletely, except where they weren't...

    Yes, that's what I thought. But then how did Sarah Jane remember them in School Reunion. Was it becuase her time travelling days effectively also took her outside of the newly-established time line?

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     Tuesday, June 10 2008 @ 03:22 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Sabalon]
    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am]
    I was a little thrown, too, by how River can potentially still do all these things in the Doctor's future with him, since it seemed to me by going back and dying to save all the folks floating in CAL's hard drive, she effectively altered her own timeline and now is "technically" dead.


    Simple really, well sorta. Lets take it read that River Song is 45 during this story (Alex Kingston's age). Lets also assume the Doctor is 942 - just to humor Douglass Adams.

    Now, for all of Rivers adventures to happen with the Doctor, they have to happen in her personal past and the Doctors personal future. So, she may have met the Doctor for the first time when she was 36 and he was 987. So that gives her 9 years of memories and adventures in her timeline with the Doctor.

    She said something in the first episode about knowing it was not going to be easy with a time traveller, so perhaps the Doc had was 1024 the second time they met, and her still 36. Then the third time, she was 37 and he could have been 993. As he put it "Things don't always happen to me in the right sequence."

    This is one of the few times this has been done this way in the show. One thing that always bugged me about The Master stories is that the personal timelines of The Doctor and The Master seem to be in sync. You never had the Master showing up having done something knowing what the Doctor was going to do (Curse of the Fatal Death aside.) What's to say that Jack, The Master, or River Song couldn't appear, tell the Doctor "Wow...we just saved Arakkis and defeated the bad guy together." and then say "oh..that hasn't happened yet for you...but when it does, remember, press the red button." Paradox galore!



    Potential explanation appreciated, my friend.

    Essentially, I found myself ok with the story's conclusion upon the viewing of the episode coming to a close - until several friends began to question the nature of the "timey-wimey" factor of her death, which got me thinking too much - now, I'm just not so sure it all works for me like I thought it did. Something just doesn't fit. To those that feel it does, I'm happy for you, seriously - I just can't apply blinders here when it doesn't all cohesively gel in some form I can't quite put my finger on. It's ambitious stuff, to be sure, and I'm glad to see more of it thrown our way to keep things stimulating and exceedingly interesting - I just want it all to work, too - without a second thought. And from where I stand, it just feels paradoxical at the end of this story.

    Had River Song lived and vanished at the end of this story to be with "her Doctor" once more, and they bookended this with a winking nod to the Doc awaiting their future meeting when he's the Doctor she meets for the first time, I think I'd have liked it more. It would have seemed more appropriate. In hindsight, her death also seemed sort of clumsy and unnecessary in its own right - not dissimilar to the silly death Kylie had in "Voyage of the Damned" - like it could have been prevented, or altogether averted in the context of the story.

    I dunno. Just me, I guess. I wish I could just accept it for being a faultless masterwork as the consensus would suggest here and everywhere else. Just don't see it. Could be having a delayed reaction, but I doubt it.

    Human Biological Metacrisis = Bite Me, RTD.
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     Tuesday, June 10 2008 @ 03:31 PM EDT

    Makes you wonder with all these 'your dead and gone - hangon a minute your back' storylines that when we come to the 'Doctor Lite' or 'companion heavy' episodes the actresses will wonder - if they get the short straw - if that means what it should mean.

    What I'm trying to say (badly I think) is we need a storyline:-

    'no your dead...not pretend dead....that's it...hand in your TARDIS key and the actors bathroom key...go on...toodleloo..honestly I mean it...no second chances...close the door on the way out...'

    Cheers, daveac


    daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP, cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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