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daveac
Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2636
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 Monday, June 30 2008 @ 07:14 AM EDT |
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After my son suggested to me that Harriet Jones is the Master - I'm seeing more clues.
As well as over-using the indenty point with her passport, her death not being shown, the Daleks saying 'we know who you are', the fact she could finalise the special signal network & that a woman picked up the Master's ring:-
She made a point of giving Sarah Janes Address during the conference call - and it could be the Daleks that SJS ran straight into were on their way to her address.
The Master also new about Martha and her family but I'm not sure Harriet did.
Cheers, daveac
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daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP,
cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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Linquel
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 729
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 07:56 AM EDT |
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Watched the ep last night, but had to go right to bed. I mostly enjoyed it. I think I kind of enjoyed Turn Left a little more, similar to last year when I enjoyed Utopia more than SoD. It was great to see Harriet Jones again, what a way to go out. I loved the bringing together of the three shows (and when is SJA coming back already). The end had my wife shouting, "I don't want to lose MY doctor." I'll probably watch it again and post again. I know I had more I wanted to say, but can't remember now.
Oh, one thing I do want to say...I was listening to the Live podcast of Turn Left yesterday and wanted to smack the guy who called talking about Davros. Just because you know about it, doesn't mean it's no longer a spoiler. Sheesh! |
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I'm going "Full Circle" and putting my avatar back to what it was when I first joined. :)
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Sabalon
Registered: 09/19/06
Posts: 73
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 08:23 AM EDT |
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| [Quote by: DarthSkeptical] No, not Davros. A group of Daleks took over the Earth in the appropriately-named Dalek Invasion of Earth. Their plan was to replace the core of the planet with an engine, transforming Earth into a navigable space ship. |
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Oh yeah...the one with the guy from Thriller  Sadly it's been years since I've seen the Hartnell stuff. I really need to get out my old tapes from PBS and start from the beginning. Thanks for the explanation. |
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sgb1975
Registered: 06/19/06
Posts: 281
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 10:00 AM EDT |
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| [Quote by: daveac]I think Captain will break open the 'hand jar' and put the hand into the Doctor's hand thereby making the Doctor re-generate back into himself. |
| I was thinking along these lines as well. Once the shock of the final scene wore off, I was able to sit back and soak it all in, and I doubt the regeneration will take. If it really did happen, it would be incredibly unfair to the new actor, as he'd only get less then a full episode to introduce his style. Then the unfair comparisons to all previous Doctors would happen for the next 10 months...kind of like what happened to Catherine Tate when it was announced she'd be the companion this year. And she undoubtedly proved everybody wrong (myself included). But here's some wild speculation on my part: Jack breaks open the hand jar and tosses it at the Doctor, thinking he's helping to save Tennant. Now, in addition to the hand helping stop Tennant from regenerating...the hand begins to grow a new Doctor! Now we've got 2 Doctors running around.
| [Quote by: rheimbro] Today's Lesson... If you should ever find yourself reunited with a long lost loved one, and you begin to run towards each other, and you find it is taking longer than you think it should....chances are something very bad is going to happen before you find yourselves in a warm embrace of joy. Oh and look both ways in case there are Daleks... |
| Totally agree. This scene was way too cliche and you knew something was going to happen. But I admit I thought it was Rose that was gonna get it and not The Doctor.
[Quote by: Idiom] Personally I hope that we don't get to see the Time War - I'm not sure that it could ever live up to our expectations. Better to exist in all of it's glory in our mind's eye.
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| An interesting point. You could be correct. Oh RTD, why doth thou tease us with the Time War so much? I don't think I can take much more of this. To do The Time War properly, you'd almost have to give it the feature-length film treatment, with bigger time slot (90-120 minutes), a large cast, and not least of all - proper budget (probably major special effects as this would almost certainly be completely off-Earth). Plus, some sort of commitment from McGann and/or Eccleston as well. Short of all that, it probably would be extremely tough to live up to expectations we've created. But I've still got my fingers crossed that we'll see it.
- Unless I'm missing something (been spoil-free thus far, so I'm not sure what happens in the finale), but why do people think The Master is coming back? I'm fairly sure whe woman's hand picking up the ring was nothing more than setting the stage for a future Master story...possibly during the off year in 09, but more than likely in series 5 or later.
- I loved Sarah Jane back in the classic series, and it was nice to see her again in School Reunion, but I felt as though she was completely out of place in this story. If RTD wanted to go the companion-fest route, he probably just should've stuck with the new series companions. I think the story flow would've been better. Unless SJS's presence somehow plays an integral part next week, it's almost as if she was just there as a promo for her spin-off show.
- Not sure about Harriet Jones' appearence . I never really cared for her character (I didn't like the 1st Slitheen story...or the 2nd one for that matter). And now she's helping the same Doctor that ruined her career? In the world of fiction, humans don't forgive and forget. There's no way that she's forgiven The Doctor for what he did to her political career, imho. That's why having her be the central link to all the companions doesn't work for me.
- Nice to have a Davros that doesn't waddle when he moves. Happy to see Davros back. I've always liked him.
- Good to see the pure Daleks back. It appears as though we can finally put the New York 2 parter to rest now.
- I liked seeing all of Torchwood (well, what's left of them), and not just Jack. The more I think about it, the more I love that show.
- All this season, I never quite got why people love Bernard Cribbins so much (As a US red-flight viewer, I can't recall having seen anything else he's been in). Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't hate him, but I couldn't understand all the fuss. Having seen this episode, I now know what it's all about. His comedic timing is perfect. When he told Rose that Donna's mother wouldn't let him get a web cam because they're filthy, I nearly lost it. I'll take him over Jackie and Martha's mom any day of the week!
- I hope to see more of The Shadow Proclamation and/or Judoon next week, because if this was it, then it was a waste of time.
- I thought the idea of having every phone on Earth call The Doctor was foolish. Almost as bad as last year's finale when everybody on Earth had to think about him at the same time.
- Although I'm not concinved we'll see a regeneration, I'd definitely rank this up there in the top three Who cliff-hangers of all time.
- It kills me to still see here, so soon after an episode airs, how many people come out and say this is their favorite episode of all-time, or this is the greatest Who story ever. I can't tell them they're wrong, as these are simply opinions that we are all entitled to, but I would advise to step back, take a deep breath, think about this for a few months, and then come back and see if you still feel the same.
- More wild speculation: First - The Time War was "Time Locked"...that is until Caan breaks through and rescues Davros before he was killed. So it's not as locked as first thought. Second - Why is Dalek Caan still around in that crazy state? Once he saved Davros and lost his mind, he's now outlived his usefulness and should've been put down. Third - Seems that we're heading toward some kind of sacrifice on Donna's part. Her imminent death? Maybe. Now the good part - Donna somehow gets paired up with Caan (maybe she's captured and brought aboard Davros' ship - I don't know...) but anyway, she forces/convinces Caan to break through the Time War lock, at which point she alters the war and saves Gallifrey, while (apparently) destroying the Daleks for good, but dies in the process...her final heroic act, and final gift to The Doctor. Daleks gone/Time-Lords back! Damn, this what-if stuff is fun!
- Anyway, a good all-around episode. Definitely has a finale-feel to it. And I'm hoping next week won't disappoint, although the more I think about it, the more I feel some sort of universal-reset is coming.
4 out of 5.
Hey, I only quoted 3 people this week...I'm getting better...
-Steve
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Idiom
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 722
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 10:32 AM EDT |
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| [Quote by: sgb1975] It kills me to still see here, so soon after an episode airs, how many people come out and say this is their favorite episode of all-time, or this is the greatest Who story ever. I can't tell them they're wrong, as these are simply opinions that we are all entitled to, but I would advise to step back, take a deep breath, think about this for a few months, and then come back and see if you still feel the same. |
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I'm not sure why this annoys you so much. I'm not sure if this is MY favourite esiode ever but based on my emotional reaction to it, it might just be (until the one to top it comes along - fingers crossed for next week).
But I cannot understand irritation at those who express preferences that I don't share. If that was the case, I'd be furiously posting my disagreement every week. For me this epsiode out-ranked anything since Who came back and a lot that went before. Just wish you all could have seen it through my eyes. |
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T Baker(notTom)
.jpg)
Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 320
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 10:41 AM EDT |
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What's the deal with this regeneration sequence!!!
In the past they were all different. The 1st regeneration was done with the help of the TARDIS, the 2nd by the Time-lords who were trying the Doctor, the 3rd he was "pushed" along by Cho-Je/K'anpo the 4th was the Watcher (the future projection), the 5th was a haphazard affair with the memory of the Master pushing his resolve to regenerate, the 6th - was a more "normal" regeration with him just glowing and then changing, the 7th was a delayed regeneration (because of the anesthetic), the 8th is unseen, but now we get to the current seasons and both regenerations are the same - him standing up and then exploding into a powerful light and changing.
As you see the regenerations were different - except for the last two. Why are they the same??? The show has a history of making each regeneration different - so again why are the last two the same process???
I know that this regeneration is probably a fake one but still the regeneration process should have been different - right? |
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"Make your last move, Doctor. Make your LAST move."
The Celestial Toymaker to the Doctor in "The Celestial Toymaker: The Final Test"
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sgb1975
Registered: 06/19/06
Posts: 281
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 11:11 AM EDT |
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I shouldn't have said only this particular episode, as it seems this happens a lot from week to week. Go look at the thread for Sound of Drums last season - the praise might not be as lavish as Stolen Earth, but it's there. And now, 1 year later, what do most people think of it? Yes, there are some that love it, but I think they're in the minority.
My more general point was that people seem to get caught up in the moment watching an episode, and to make a claim that any particular episode is the best Doctor Who story ever seems a bit much to say about an episode that you watched less than an hour ago. It's probably from the excitement and drama still pumping through their system. And I'm not even saying they're wrong. Maybe it is the best Who ever...it's an opinion and by definition can't be right or wrong, which is why these forums produce so many great debates. But I think there might be a more scientific way to go about it and sit tight for a while and see if they feel the same way 3 months from now. If this is the best Who ever, then certainly they'd still feel that way 3 months from now. After all, one person's Genesis of the Daleks is another person's Love & Monsters...and vice-versa. Personal favorite and all-time-best can be 2 different things. My favorite Who of all time is Horror of Fang Rock, but I wouldn't say it's the best Who of all time.
I was saying the exact same thing about Star Wars right after I saw The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. I went to the midnight screenings, and couldn't sleep afterwards and kept talking about them, but now I look back and ask myself, "What the heck was I smoking?" Enjoyable? At the time, yes. Best Star Wars ever? Hell no. |
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Sabalon
Registered: 09/19/06
Posts: 73
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 11:14 AM EDT |
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| [Quote by: T Baker(notTom)] As you see the regenerations were different - except for the last two. Why are they the same??? The show has a history of making each regeneration different - so again why are the last two the same process??? |
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I would say that it has to do with the fx coming a long way since a slow-dissolve passed as a regeneration. Definatly a lot better than McCoy in a blonde wig
The CE->DT regeneration, with all the lovely glowing, I took to be a side-effect of him absorbing the time vortex from Rose. It would make sense for there to be an incredible amount of energy used by the process, but it should be internal, not blown outward.
I guess they decided that it worked well enough the first time, so why not keep it. They also used it at the end of Utopia when the Master regenerated.
To be honest, I kinda like the idea of having them being a standard way. Yes, the reasons may be different, but it makes sense for a biological process like this to occur the same way every time. |
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T Baker(notTom)
Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 320
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 11:23 AM EDT |
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| [Quote by: Sabalon]Definatly a lot better than McCoy in a blonde wig |
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Anything would have been better than that but, Colin Baker didn't want to do the regeneration sequence for the show. |
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"Make your last move, Doctor. Make your LAST move."
The Celestial Toymaker to the Doctor in "The Celestial Toymaker: The Final Test"
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mad4plaid
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 880
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 11:43 AM EDT |
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Just watched the confidential (red eye was in a LONG holding pattern over Heathrow, I guess).
So, can someone explain to me why Terry Nation owns the Daleks but Cusick (spelling?) was the one who came up with the design concept. Did Cusick get anything besides his salary out of the deal? The way it sounded on the confidential, all Cusick had to work with was the gliding movements and not much else.
Just wondering what the story is there; I know Nation was the writer and it does get to intellectual property, but I do wonder if there is more to it than that. |
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supremacy is relative
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romana_II
Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 182
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 12:16 PM EDT |
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Still love the episode, even after watching it a fourth time now.
Since I was emo about my sound last night, and didn't get to say everything I wanted too, I recorded this tonight.
Basically just an audio review of the episode done by me.
review |
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bye bye david :(
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tarashnat
Registered: 08/17/05
Posts: 3062
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 12:48 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: mad4plaid] Just watched the confidential (red eye was in a LONG holding pattern over Heathrow, I guess).
So, can someone explain to me why Terry Nation owns the Daleks but Cusick (spelling?) was the one who came up with the design concept. Did Cusick get anything besides his salary out of the deal? The way it sounded on the confidential, all Cusick had to work with was the gliding movements and not much else.
Just wondering what the story is there; I know Nation was the writer and it does get to intellectual property, but I do wonder if there is more to it than that. |
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Nation made sure that his writer's contracts gave him the rights to his creations. Plus, there was quite a bit of detail in his descriptions. Does Cusick deserve some of the credit? Sure, but it was Nation's idea that he was developing. Another thing to remember is that the stories evolve in the retelling. |
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Daleks don't accept apologies! YOU WILL BE EXTERMINATED!
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TorchwoodPDX
Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 23
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 12:58 PM EDT |
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| [Quote I want Harriet Jones' death to matter |
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How do you know she is dead? Because the Doctors Army believe her to be dead? Well that is not proof.
What did we see.
We see her standing off with the Daleks.
And we see them aiming directly at her,
then we see a close up of a gun changing direction to the right of the screen towards the computer system.
Then transmission ends.
We do not see a X-ray body of the former PM as she is blown up, or her screaming or anything.
Yet we believe she is dead..... why?
Because Dalek's don't ever take prisoners for slave labor or cleaver humans for processing or anything like that?
Even if she is dead, she did not die in vain, she died to bring back the Doctor and to warn us/scare us about the technology that Martha is not to use.
Which you know is going to be used... right?
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Will-I-Am
Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 146
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 01:04 PM EDT |
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Well, I've watched it twice now, along with the Confidential (which was great).
Sigh... I just don't know about this one. I honestly don't know. Good grief! 
I was ok with just about all of it until THAT ending - because as many already know and have suggested, the "facts" that can be found floating around out there suggest that Tennant is not due to check out just yet - which would also suggest either a hugely elaborate smokescreen to keep this all hush-hush all the way to the finish line, or, in fact, they've just gone and taken the piss with the most vital element of Who mythology by cheapening the simultaneously dreaded yet always exciting and anticipated regeneration of the main character.
That said, it seems clear (to me) that it's somehow going to be a cop-out. In truth, the only way it couldn't/wouldn't be is if he actually changes for real and it sticks. I honestly don't see that happening, though. And if something along the lines of (from fan speculation elsewhere out there) the preserved hand enables him to regenerate back into the same Doc again, or something potentially as lame, I'm going to hate RTD with a passion at the very end of his overall magnificent run with the revived series. That will just be laughable to the canon of the character, and an utter travesty to the heightened drama that a real regeneration brings us each time it comes around.
Overall, it rocked otherwise - especially the Daleks yelling out things like "Annihilate U.N.I.T.!!!," or however it was said. A few other qualms that I won't nitpick for now until I see the second half, just to see if an overall payoff erases their relevancy in the grand scheme of things, but honestly - there's still some shoddy writing in this first half that might overshadow the whole thing if the second part doesn't make it all work somehow. And there's a lot to resolve, quite obviously.
In essence, there's a hell of a lot riding on this Saturday. A HELL OF A LOT. It's either going to pay off as the most brilliant 2-parter yet, or the greatest failure - period. There's even a chance it will fall somewhere in-between, but honestly, with THAT ending in the first part, it has to be brilliantly resolved - otherwise, it's going to be utterly ridiculous in the end no matter what. I think that cliffhanger is the most dangerous move they've made since the series has returned. Even more dangerous than churning out mediocre fare like "Fear Hear" or borderline complete crap like "Love and Monsters." You just don't mess with stuff like that, unless you really know what you're doing. After 4 full seasons, RTD, I honestly still have doubt now. Here's hoping you've got one amazing trick left up your sleeve to make me cast the final shadow off.
This had better work, Russell. *patiently taps foot waiting for Saturday* |
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Human Biological Metacrisis = Bite Me, RTD.
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DarthSkeptical
Registered: 03/11/06
Posts: 1129
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| Monday, June 30 2008 @ 01:06 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: Sabalon] | [Quote by: T Baker(notTom)] As you see the regenerations were different - except for the last two. Why are they the same??? The show has a history of making each regeneration different - so again why are the last two the same process??? |
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I would say that it has to do with the fx coming a long way since a slow-dissolve passed as a regeneration. Definatly a lot better than McCoy in a blonde wig
The CE->DT regeneration, with all the lovely glowing, I took to be a side-effect of him absorbing the time vortex from Rose. It would make sense for there to be an incredible amount of energy used by the process, but it should be internal, not blown outward.
I guess they decided that it worked well enough the first time, so why not keep it. They also used it at the end of Utopia when the Master regenerated.
To be honest, I kinda like the idea of having them being a standard way. Yes, the reasons may be different, but it makes sense for a biological process like this to occur the same way every time. |
| Graeme Harper addressed this in the Confidential last year surrounding the Master's regeneration. He said that a decision had been taken by RTD and company that, from now on, all regenerations of all Time Lords will look the same, because it helps narratively for the process to have the same dimensions. And you can totally see why from this episode. You first get a close-up of his hand, where he's looking for the gold glow. Why? Because that was the initial tip-off in "Parting of the Ways". Then you get the same explosive animation that we've now seen twice before.
If it looked different we would be able to more easily write it off. It's pretty hard for us to dismiss this as a regeneration — and therefore why this ranks as one of the best cliffhangers ever — thanks to the fact that the regenerative process has been visually standardized. |
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"I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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