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     Home »  The David Tennant Era »  S4E13 Journey's End [SPOILERS]
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    S4E13 Journey's End [SPOILERS] Views: 9458
     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 04:35 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthGymRat] Oh, forgot two more things!
    ...

    RTD - Thank you so much for not pulling a reset button at the end of this episode. Last year was quite enough!



    Ahh... but the reset button was used in a sense with the character of Donna.

    And the whole Earth being kidnapped is just going to play out as "one of those stories" for Donna? I don't think so. You mean from this point on, the human race on Earth is just going to conveniently forget what happened? It's just going to be one those things she missed... it's gonna be hard to swallow.

    I like it better when Earth was mostly in the dark about all the extraterrestrial activities. We had the United Nations Intelligence Taskforce to keep things tidy. The series today insist and bringing just about every threat to Earth because we couldn't possibly feel threatened by anything else unless we, ourselves are threatened directly.

    Cheers,
    Louis

    ☛ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/LouisTrapani ♥ ♥
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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 04:54 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  The Bachelor] Something tells me Louis is going to have a problem with some of the science in this episode, or lack thereof.

    Louis mate, face it, Doctor who is not science fiction; It is fiction science!!!

    Just drop the science and just go with it and let the story take you wherever it's going. This is why I'm so jealous of children, there imaginations know no limits.


    The science in Doctor Who?... Sadly, I don't even expect science in it anymore. Just give me some believability. Suspension of disbelief can only go so far... I give each story only so many credits of suspension of disbelief. Some stories are just way too expensive and go bankrupt.

    When it passes the bar set previously by the series as a whole, then it's no longer playing by the rules it has set for itself.

    Be it a Candyman or a talking slab of concrete... It is turns into silly nonsense. It works fine when that is the framework you are working in, such as Looney Tunes or Ghostbusters or Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, all of which I love and enjoy.

    The Earth being tugged back to its place via the TARDIS. Earth and everyone and everything on it only experience from it is the change from darkness to the light of our sun again. Science? No.. I can't complain about something that isn't even there. It's a cartoon. Perhaps Bugs Bunny will show up as a future companion for the Doctor.

    Cheers,
    Louis

    P.S. - Yeah, I know Captain Jack explains that there was some sort of protective envelope placed around Earth when it was brought there. I guess it is still in operation even though the Dalek fleet was destroyed.

    ☛ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/LouisTrapani ♥ ♥
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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 05:14 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Louis]
    The science in Doctor Who?... Sadly, I don't even expect science in it anymore. Just give me some believability. Science? No.. I can't complain about something that isn't even there. It's a cartoon. Perhaps Bugs Bunny will show up as a future companion for the Doctor.


    Louis, sometimes you really, really crack me up. I don't know why it entertains me to no end either reading your posts or hearing you say on the podcasts how you can't accept much of these more fantastical aspects in the more recent WHO.

    But please, go on, keep voicing your opinions, I simply love it!!!

    Esco, "The Bachelor" has regenerated into Bullitt33!!!!
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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 05:19 PM EDT
    So do you think maybe 'new-Who' is no longer for you Louis?

    The show is getting massive ratings year on year but from your post (with the greatest of respect) I think maybe what you're saying is coming purely from an old school fan point of view who wants things to stay as they were all be it with a bigger budget. Things have moved on and the vast majority of those millions of people who tune in week after week are not fans and do really like what they see.

    A lot of people on various forums seem to think things are going to change significantly when the great Moff takes over but I doubt it will. A format has been established and it works, different episodes appeal to different people and there is no way he'll do a whole series of 'The Empty Child' or 'Blink!' type episodes.

    (please don't view my post as I'm trying to 'troll' you, I'm not I'm genuinely interested in your view)

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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 05:25 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Louis] The Earth being tugged back to its place via the TARDIS. Earth and everyone and everything on it only experience from it is the change from darkness to the light of our sun again.

    Cheers,
    Louis


    I'm halfway with you on this, Louis.

    Sadly, I completely accepted the Tardis tugging the Earth back (I mean, sure, why not?). MY issue was that they did it in such a short time w/o the use of hyperspace, warp technology or an FTL drive! (yes, Star Trek/BSG science would have worked for me very well). The Medusa Cascade to the Solar System in 10 seconds? Nope. That's where my belief was no longer suspended.

    supremacy is relative
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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 05:50 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  capricorn1]
    A lot of people on various forums seem to think things are going to change significantly when the great Moff takes over but I doubt it will.


    I'm sure this conversation exists on some other forum post, but I guess it's going to everywhere anyway. In my opinion it is kind of a big deal.

    I disagree. I mean although it might be the same basic format I think the whole tone of the show could change quite noticeably. I think Moff is going to have 2 main things going on in his head.

    For 1, try not to repeat or do anything RTD already has. I'm fairly certain we're not going to be seeing the Daleks or Cybermen very much any time soon after X-mas.

    And 2nd, this is finally Moff's chance to implement what ever those things or elements are that he's always wanted to bring back.

    Keeping these 2 points in mind, we more or may not see so much emphasis on Earth bound stories any more. Perhaps not so much emphasis on each companions entire family. New classic monsters returning. And I really hope for this one, no more covert yet abundantly obvious references to everyone being "all inclusive" and constantly being reminded about keeping "an open mind" when it comes to other beings and/or persuasions. And perhaps just an overall different tone altogether. I also expect a lot more creepy stories and time travel mumbo jumbo to crop up whether penned by Moff himself or not.

    Esco, "The Bachelor" has regenerated into Bullitt33!!!!
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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 06:06 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  mad4plaid]

    I'm halfway with you on this, Louis.

    Sadly, I completely accepted the Tardis tugging the Earth back (I mean, sure, why not?). MY issue was that they did it in such a short time w/o the use of hyperspace, warp technology or an FTL drive! (yes, Star Trek/BSG science would have worked for me very well). The Medusa Cascade to the Solar System in 10 seconds? Nope. That's where my belief was no longer suspended.


    To be honest, while it may have been annoying, it wasn't a deal breaker... Perhaps my expectations for any believability in Doctor Who has been lowered so much, that I was a bit indifferent about it when I saw it. Whereas Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead had dead people's voices still being played on their comlinks or whatever it was... or ghost-fading or whatever it was called... talking slabs, etc.. is just too expensive when it comes to suspension of disbelief. Or creatures intelligent enough to camouflage themselves as shadows yet instead of hiding in the existing shadow, they create a second one. And so what if something has more than one shadow, it happens all the time when there is more than one light source. Sure, if you approach the series simply as "a children's series" -- well, I guess it is fine... Which it seems to be the case.

    I can deal with dodgy science if perhaps there was some sort of explanation that is believable and doesn't insult one's intelligence.

    I was just pulling an example from the Journey's End... but it wasn't necessarily something that bothered me as much as other instances in the series when believability goes out the window.

    Cheers,
    Louis

    ☛ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/LouisTrapani ♥ ♥
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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 07:01 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  odessasteps]
    parts of this episode reminded me of very bad fan fiction.

    (apologies to those of you out there that do it.)

    other parts, just great.

    Can we get Grandpa as a companion


    I'm on the "Wilf for Companion" campaign as well!

    The airport sandwich tasted like a 7-course meal of postage stamps.
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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 07:33 PM EDT
    I'm now listening to the Podshock for this story and I'm wondering has D Skep given his input yet?

    -cs™

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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 07:38 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Smitty] I'm now listening to the Podshock for this story and I'm wondering has D Skep given his input yet?

    -cs™


    He's on towards the end... approx. 8th or later caller, I lost track.

    Daleks don't accept apologies! YOU WILL BE EXTERMINATED!
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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 07:43 PM EDT
    Don't tell me what he said!

    I don't wanna be spoiled on the D Skep tip!

    -cs™

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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 08:22 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  capricorn1] So do you think maybe 'new-Who' is no longer for you Louis?

    The show is getting massive ratings year on year but from your post (with the greatest of respect) I think maybe what you're saying is coming purely from an old school fan point of view who wants things to stay as they were all be it with a bigger budget. Things have moved on and the vast majority of those millions of people who tune in week after week are not fans and do really like what they see.

    A lot of people on various forums seem to think things are going to change significantly when the great Moff takes over but I doubt it will. A format has been established and it works, different episodes appeal to different people and there is no way he'll do a whole series of 'The Empty Child' or 'Blink!' type episodes.

    (please don't view my post as I'm trying to 'troll' you, I'm not I'm genuinely interested in your view)


    The series today is trying to push the series into places it hadn't gone before. If that works for today's audiences, then so be it.

    I am not interested in the ratings. I never had been. It's good enough to be one of the top rated shows, it doesn't need to be THE top rated show. I want to have a show with good intelligent stories, engaging stories, interesting characters, keep it fascinating and imaginative... I am not saying the current series doesn't have these, but if you are going to raise the bar on all levels... why not on believability as well?

    Part of the longevity of Doctor Who is due to it's constantly reinvention of itself. The Tom Baker era is vastly different from the Hartnell era, Davison is different from the Pertwee era, and so on. Not only does the Doctor change to a certain degree, but the show itself regenerates itself.

    So today's show is a new show for a new audience. It's not Pertwee's audience, it's not Baker's audience (either one), it may not even be McGann's audience.

    So if it is working today, who am I to argue with the success. I am grateful that is back. I am grateful for RTD and the creative team behind the series today. They have brought some top line people to the series in actors, writers, and directors as well as music and effects.

    The 2005 series firmly placed the series back on the map for both fans and the casual viewing audience. In the end, the series is being made for the latter segment more so than the former. That's fine and is to be expected.

    Have there been changes to the series that I disagree with? Sure. Would I have done things differently? You bet. Which would have worked better in the end? Who knows. It doesn't really matter I suppose.

    Doctor Who, while yes is the property of the BBC... I feel it has gone beyond that. I feel that it has become so iconic that it will prevail throughout history. It's such a wonderful storytelling format. Even well after the 12 regeneration cycles of the title character, it will still be around in some shape or form. Just look at what Big Finish manage to do during the years when there was nothing new being produced for television. Be in comic books, novels, audio drama, television series, movies, cave drawings, etc... The Doctor and the TARDIS will be around along with other modern day iconic characters such as Sherlock Holmes and Superman.

    Steven Moffat may take it in another direction, and who ever follows him yet in a different direction after that, and so on. Big Finish still continues to produce fine work today. There are comic books and countless fan productions. Yes, we will argue until we are blue in the face as to what is "canon" or not.

    We will always have what was created in the past with us (well with the exclusion of the visuals of the lost episodes that is of course... unless they are all recreated via animation)... The series today wants someone to lead the series who isn't afraid to push it in new directions. Moffat has proved he can do it. I may not agree with all those new directions, but so be it.

    Yes, I will continue to voice my opinions and express myself when I feel the show is on the right track or wrong track. I won't just turn a blind eye and say everything is roses and aren't we just lucky to have the series back on television.

    Yes, we are grateful to have the series back and we are very appreciative of everyone that has made it possible and continue to make it possible. It doesn't mean we need to turn off all critical judgement regarding it.

    So to answer the question is the current series no longer for me? I don't know. I think it can continue to be something I am passionate about. I understand the need and desire to push it in new directions and for it to regenerate and target today's audience... but at a certain point, you run the risk of loosing the vital ingredients that made it a success in the first place.

    Mind you all these same arguments can be made with any long running series or "franchises" if you will. From Star Trek to Battlestar Galactica. Why should Doctor Who be any different. Though I wonder sometimes if the gap from 1989 to 2005 did not exist, in other words, if it was a natural progression of changes from then to now if the changes would be more readily accepted and not even examined except for the most die-hard fans among us?

    Anyway, I am sure I went on far longer than I expected with this reply.

    Cheers,
    Louis

    ☛ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/LouisTrapani ♥ ♥
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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 08:29 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Louis]
    To be honest, while it may have been annoying, it wasn't a deal breaker... Perhaps my expectations for any believability in Doctor Who has been lowered so much, that I was a bit indifferent about it when I saw it. Whereas Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead had dead people's voices still being played on their comlinks or whatever it was... or ghost-fading or whatever it was called... talking slabs, etc.. is just too expensive when it comes to suspension of disbelief. Or creatures intelligent enough to camouflage themselves as shadows yet instead of hiding in the existing shadow, they create a second one. And so what if something has more than one shadow, it happens all the time when there is more than one light source. Sure, if you approach the series simply as "a children's series" -- well, I guess it is fine... Which it seems to be the case.

    I can deal with dodgy science if perhaps there was some sort of explanation that is believable and doesn't insult one's intelligence.

    I was just pulling an example from the Journey's End... but it wasn't necessarily something that bothered me as much as other instances in the series when believability goes out the window.

    Cheers,
    Louis


    I would really enjoy a "hardcore science" episode. I think we're due. The "everything has a scientific explanation" attitude of previous Doctors was definitely one of my reasons for staying tuned in- although this attitude was not consistently represented across JNT's (especially) or RTD's vision of the show.

    Did you say "74,384,338 to 1 against"? That's my lucky number!
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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 10:17 PM EDT
    Well...guess one more random bloke chiming in won't hurt.

    I liked the episode for what it was. As a finale for RTD, it did well. As something that kept you moving, it did well. As for science, well...the two tend not to go together.

    For someone who has hated Davros, I think this was probably the best use of his character. I liked how he was this sorta forgotten relic that they paid respect to but did not blindly follow.

    The reality bomb was a very interesting concept. Basically turn everything else in the universe back to atoms, leaving only the Daleks. Sounds like a boring universe to rule though. Still, as others have said, it clearly shows the level of insanity. I'm glad it wasn't something like "completely remove all traces of everything else from time."

    While I think that Catherine did a great job as the DoctorDonna, and DT as the DonnaDoctor, I was not too keen on the overall method of execution - more on that in a bit.

    Someone had said this was the ultimate fan-boy episode and I somewhat agree. Though I have to admit that I felt silly, as a grown man with two kids, throwing my arm up and cheering when K-9 appeared.

    I also like the way that it ended, just leaving the Doctor alone in the TARDIS. No bride, no Titanic, just an ending.

    I was not that keen on the Donna reset, but I see why it was done. I actually felt bad for her, having come so far and reduced back to that. It had a lot more emotional impact than the whole Rose thing did.

    One of the other parts I thought was really well done was when Davros pointed out to the Doctor how he creates these soldiers out of ordinary people to avoid having to do the dirty work. Thinking back, I think before Ace, this wasn't really the case. Part of this was that the scripts didn't have that much dirty work, and the other part I think is that the scripts tended to rely more on the Doctor's ability to outthink the opponent and get them to trap themselves and do the dirty work to themselves.

    Now...for the later bit. I'm with Louis somewhat. Not so much on the science part as much as how willing I am to suspend belief.

    The psuedo-science stuff doesn't bother me - I had no trouble with the cerebral interface in the suits repeating the last phrase over and over. Look at what happens to Windows when it is playing audio and the machine crashes. The soundcard keeps playing the last buffer it was given over and over. The TARDIS towing the earth - yes, it seems kinda corny, but could have easily been explained with a simple line of dialog about the TARDIS using some tractor beam to move it through the vortex or something.

    The problem I have is with the more fantastical elements that seem to be the staple of the new series. The Doctor Doby and "everyone on earth think the word Doctor", or the regeneration energy channeled into a hand and then activated, making two hybrids.

    And the "global catastrophe" stuff gets old too. I guess I'm getting old, but it was nice where the episode had the Doctor saving a handful of people on some out of the way spaceship as opposed to stopping yet another force bent on taking over earth, or some other event that if not stopped would be so catastrophic.

    To be fair, yes, there are a fair number of episodes where it is not like that, however every season finale seems to rely on that formula. Perhaps it is just the speed of the episodes that bug me. It seems that everything is so hasty in how it happens and it gives the feeling of everything being so urgent - sort of a temporal claustrophobia.

    Taking the speed of the episodes combined with the sillier and more fantastical fan-boyish elements really bugs me. Yes, the episodes are good to watch, but they do not stand out as examples of why the show is so good, both past and present. Looking back over the past few seasons episodes, part of it is the earthboundness of them. Therefore every story has this potential of being a global impact if not dealt with, whereas if it was a planetwide impact on Magrathea, I don't care as much - it doesn't seem to be as repetitive. Other than that, most of the episodes are great examples of the show, it's just the season enders and leadups that seem to go a little overboard just for the fun of it.

    Again, I guess I'm just getting old an crankier. I still enjoy the show, it just sometimes seems like too much spent on showing off what they can do when a little less FX and a little more dialog could achieve the same goal and make the story feel move believable.

    BTW - not quite sure what to make of the "There's never been a human-timelord hybrid before" Smile

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     Sunday, July 06 2008 @ 10:52 PM EDT
    Quick initial post now, and then I'll read through the thread and reply as needed.

    After the last three episodes being so good, I actually felt a little let down by the finale. I mostly enjoyed it, but parts of it left me flat. I'd probably give this one a 3 or 3.5 out of 5. I think the biggest disappointment for me was the Donna reset. Why have a character go through such a character arc only to have her lose it. I think having her do her "Flowers for Algernon" thing, where she lost the Doctor's brains would have been tragic enough. I know they have to get the Doctor back on his own for the Christmas story, but they could have done just about anything else. The only thing I could think of was that they were trying parallel her returning to "human" with her returning to her mundane life. I also wasn't thrilled with the TARDIS flying the Earth back to its orbit around the sun (speaking of orbits, it's amazing the moon was still there waiting for it). I thought the defeat of Davros and the Daleks felt a little rushed, and honestly I'm not even sure if what they did with Davros justified bringing the character back. Also, the Daleks transmatting Martha from Germany (the German speaking Daleks cracked me up) and Jack, Sarah Jane, Mickey, and Jackie seemed a little too easy. I thought that the "one who was going to die" was going to be the spare Doctor, but I was fine with him staying with Rose. They'll probably say Donna is the one who "died", even though I don't buy that. Oh well. I'll read through the thread now.

    -L
    Neutral

    [Quote  by:  cybercolin] I'll have to rewatch it, but so far its the worst 2nd part of a 'finale' for me. Was really disapointed in how they followed up last week's stonking opener.


    Ok, good. I'm not alone in how I felt about the episode. Smile

    [Quote  by:  Mohan] Sure there's still lots of room for growth as there are many plot lines left opened (the Master, the Doctor's daughter, etc.), but it was a lot of fun to watch.


    I was thinking the Doctor's daughter might be making an appearance in this episode, but I didn't think it would be in the "people around the Doctor die" montage. She did live at the end of her episode.

    [Quote  by:  spoonmerlin] I was also disapointed to see we are getting cybermen for christmas. I would like them to try and come up with a new powerful villian that wasn't done over and over already at least for awhile.


    I was a little disappointed to see the Cybermen will be in the Christmas episode, too. I might be less disappointed if they were the Cybermen of this universe (i.e. the ones from Mondos) and not the ones from Pete's world (what? are they going to cross the parallel universes again? is there a screen door between the two universes?)

    [Quote  by:  Mohan] I would have liked to have seen Davros simply want to wipe everything away just for revenge so that he could kill his own creations as they had him locked up too.


    I at least thought that he would mention the virus discussion he had with the Doctor in Genesis of...

    That would have put it in some kind of context.

    [Quote  by:  mad4plaid] So, Harriet Jones was the most loyal companion? She is the only one who died, afterall. I guess I can see that. The Doctor destroyed her reputation, her career, and still she did what had to be done to get him to help the Earth. Yup, I can see what RTD was getting to.


    It is still odd that we didn't actually see her death on-screen. Is that because she ws better known to viewers and her death would be too disturbing? Some other reason?

    [Quote  by:  Louis]
    Ahh... but the reset button was used in a sense with the character of Donna.

    And the whole Earth being kidnapped is just going to play out as "one of those stories" for Donna? I don't think so. You mean from this point on, the human race on Earth is just going to conveniently forget what happened? It's just going to be one those things she missed... it's gonna be hard to swallow.


    I had the same feeling about the "reset". And it really doesn't make any sense. What happens when someone brings up Donna's wedding that didn't happen? Or when she's watching TV and they do a special report on "the day the planets appeared in the sky?"

    I'm going "Full Circle" and putting my avatar back to what it was when I first joined. :)
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