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     Home »  The David Tennant Era »  S4E13 Journey's End [SPOILERS]
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    S4E13 Journey's End [SPOILERS] Views: 9116
     Monday, July 07 2008 @ 03:08 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Tom Hagen]
    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am]
    My feelings towards this season’s conclusion are pretty harsh. Can’t help it – it just didn’t work for me – at all. RTD took the piss on the regen straight away, thusly making that rite of passage a little less sacred in the canon from now on – especially when Tennant does finally go. Thanks a lot for that one. Frankly, that set the tone from the first minute onward – it was all downhill after fedging that crucial piece of Who mythology. At least that damned hand is finally gone, though...


    I've read this point in several places now and I don't understand it. Is the concept of regeneration really sacred in [i]Who[/i] to be only touched upon when an actor changes? I quite like the notion of it being used in stories for reasons other than to change the Doctor.

    Regeneration is a "rite of passage" for viewers only as much as the actor playing the Doctor changes. Which, especially for kids, is a big deal. I don't think that changes and arguably the notion that regeneration might not mean change will keep a little bit more of a cliffhanger for when Tennant does change.


    But it's always meant that - until now. And frankly, I choose to call foul. I'm not alone, either.

    I see it as a true rite-of-passage, yes. Completely and absolutely. Faking it (once proven so) as a cheap way of keeping everyone on edge for a solid week was positively unforgivable to me. Most signs pointed to it being a fake, due to those keeping up with spoilers and news already confirming Tennant had been filming for Christmas. Still, my mind raced at the thought that we'd ALL been punked with fake or staged set photos - and somehow, someway, they'd managed to pull out a surprise regen without anyone knowing it - and that it was really coming. An elaborate smokescreen of that caliber would've been brilliant beyond belief. To think, in the age of the Internet today, they could somehow pull a cou like that and he'd actually change when many were already so sure otherwise - man, it would've been astoundingly great and one for the books. But no.

    To me, the act of a regen is cheapened now - for a while, anyway, at least. And certainly, Tennant's departure is as well. It's always been a reluctant milestone yet exciting facet in Who canon - the passing of the torch from Doctor-to-Doctor. Now, it can be cheap cliffhanger tripe? Please. What's to keep me from thinking he's not going to just snap out of it again next time? "Awww, you know - on second thought, I CAN'T change this time, either - I mean - c'mon, LOOK at me!" That was terrible. Tack that arrogant delivery on to the situation in question and you've got a moment in Who canon that ought to be BURIED for all time's sake.

    It didn't bother you, Tom. And that is fine. I respect that. Plenty of people agree with you completely. But I also have my feelings on the matter. And they are concrete and most passionate. They are certainly shared elsewhere, also. It's just the difference in opinion, that's all. I wish I could be ok with it as a simple, cheeky "Chekov's Gun" gag with the severed hand paying off after all this time, but I cannot. I will not. Simple as that.

    Human Biological Metacrisis = Bite Me, RTD.
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     Monday, July 07 2008 @ 03:16 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Idiom]
    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am]I’m really shocked at the overall positive reception this finale seems to be getting all over the DW fan community – it’s rather sad, in terms of the quality of some of the rest of this year’s run.

    Once again, I really don't understand why some need to get upset about other's opinions. You hated it. You make some good points. Others disagree with your points and make other good points. They (I) loved it. We're sorry you don't feel the same, No need to describe our opinions as 'sad'. There is a certain arrogance in that.


    By "sad," I was referring to the quality of the episode, in my own view. Sorry if that was unclear. You misread my intent.

    Human Biological Metacrisis = Bite Me, RTD.
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     Monday, July 07 2008 @ 04:07 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am] By "sad," I was referring to the quality of the episode, in my own view. Sorry if that was unclear. You misread my intent.

    Then I apologise

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     Monday, July 07 2008 @ 04:23 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Idiom]
    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am] By "sad," I was referring to the quality of the episode, in my own view. Sorry if that was unclear. You misread my intent.

    Then I apologise


    No problem. It happens. I apologize for not being as clear as I'd intended. Such can happen when on a rant, be it positive or negative in nature. Smile

    Human Biological Metacrisis = Bite Me, RTD.
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     Monday, July 07 2008 @ 04:24 PM EDT
    I haven't heard this weeks podshock yet, but here's my two cents.

    What I saw in this episode was everything that we have been asking for on the forums.

    More than one companion? Check. (How great was that scene?)
    Multiple Doctor? Check. (yes, he's the same one but I'm counting it.
    Less sonic screwdriver? Check. (Haven't seen it since Midnight)
    Breaking the pattern? Check.
    Off Earth? Well, if the Earth being in different place counts. Check.
    A plot twist that no one sees coming? (Dalek Caan) Check.
    A companion who isn't in love with the Doctor? Check.
    Blowing the special effects budget? Check.


    So,
    Russel gives us everything we've asked for and then there are people who complain. My kids like to pull that stunt.

    I like to judge episodes by how long they feel. This was 63 minutes that felt like 43. Whereas Turn left was 43 that felt like 53.

    How good was Catherine Tate this year? I had not seen any of her stuff before this year and I thought she blew my socks off. I'm sorry to see her go. She did a great job being human all year, but when she starts spouting technobabble she just impressed the heck outta me. I'm a geek and love my scifi and love to listen to audio commentaries to hear actors talk about their craft. And from what I've heard technobabble is tough. Not only do you have to spit out these huge non-sensical words, often it must be done at high speed. (See David Tenant in Doctor Who and David Hewlitt in Stargate Atlantis).

    Wow, look at me go. Good thing there isn't a word limit here.

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     Monday, July 07 2008 @ 04:55 PM EDT
    I didn't mind the regeneration fake going into it. I just felt the "channeling off the extra energy" after healing was a quick plot-device to get out of "hey, I've got a great idea for a cliffhanger." It just doesn't go that well with canon - why not do that after Spider Planet or Caves of Androzoni? Same concept and from a "in the story" point of view, you are not wasting a life.

    Yes, it's hard to keep 45 years of history logically straight between all the stories, but for the big parts of the show (regeneration, time travel, TARDIS, accidental knicker shots, non-violent problem solving), it does help.

    However, if it happens again, then it is being used as a cheap gimmick.

    On the other hand, if they start using regeneration energy as the ultimate first aid kit every week, it'll make DT's actual departure more of a surprise when he does change. Neutral

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     Monday, July 07 2008 @ 07:26 PM EDT
    More comments...

    [Quote  by:  sgb1975] I didn't really care for the whole DoctorDonna thing. Although slightly different, it felt too much like when Rose looked into the heart of the TARDIS. Almost like Bad Wolf-Donna, without the superpowers.


    Now that you mention it, after the appearance of all the Bad Wolf text (including all over the TARDIS) at the end of Turn Left, I expected there to be a bigger connection with the Bad Wolf Rose. But it really didn't come up again in Stolen Earth or Journey's End. The TARDIS just went back to normal and Bad Wolf was forgotten.

    [Quote  by:  sgb1975]
    - The O-key also shows a change in direction for humankind in the show...almost like they're prepared to give up.


    I kind of wrote it off as an ultimate Mutually Assured Destruction plan. Earth gets invaded, the suffering of humanity is too great, take the bad guys out with you in a blaze of glory.

    [Quote  by:  rheimbro]
    But of course, it is all at the cost of never remembering the happiest days of her life, and that is extremely tragic. Not only for her, but also for Sylvia and Wilf. To not be able to share with her what she did for fear of losing her. That is just gut-wrenching (perhaps less so if anyone but Bernard Cribbins had played Wilf- he is just so good!)

    Anyhow, I guess the difference for me is one of hope. The hope that Donna can still have an enjoyable life, regardless of if it could ever match up with her time with the Doctor.


    I don't know...maybe I'm just really dark, but rather than this undoing all of her growth and her going back to what she was pre-Doctor, I almost would have preferred something like the end of Brazil. The experience of containing the Doctor's mind kind of fries her and she is off having more adventures in her imagination but in reality she's kind of a vegetable. *shrug*

    [Quote  by:  Tom Hagen]
    I think the most interesting aspect of Donna's fate is how it emphasises that the difference between those people who change the world and those that think they are nothing is they regard themselves. Donna changed because she stopped thinking of herself as a nobody, thanks to the Doctor. Hopefully her Mum and Wilf can help her be that person again.


    But she never really stopped thinking of herself as a nobody. She kept telling Rose and everyone that she was nothing special, just a temp from Chetwick (or whereever).

    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am]

    My feelings towards this season’s conclusion are pretty harsh.


    And I thought I was being harsh. But I don't disagree with anything you wrote. You just said it better than me. Smile

    [Quote  by:  Idiom]
    Oh and one other point. Who's to say that the TARDIS cannot tow a planet? Has this ever been mentioned? Isn't it one of the most powerful devices in creation able to tap into the source of time/space itself. Why is it that that aspect is believable but it's ability to pull something heavy isn't?


    To me it wasn't the actual act of the TARDIS doing the pulling, it was the fact that it took so little time but only resulted in a little shaking and some rain. I mean, we know it's powerful...it was able to pull the spaceship away from the black hole in the Satan Pit.

    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am]
    But it's always meant that - until now. And frankly, I choose to call foul...I see it as a true rite-of-passage, yes. Completely and absolutely. Faking it (once proven so) as a cheap way of keeping everyone on edge for a solid week was positively unforgivable to me...To me, the act of a regen is cheapened now - for a while, anyway, at least. And certainly, Tennant's departure is as well. It's always been a reluctant milestone yet exciting facet in Who canon - the passing of the torch from Doctor-to-Doctor. Now, it can be cheap cliffhanger tripe? Please. What's to keep me from thinking he's not going to just snap out of it again next time? "Awww, you know - on second thought, I CAN'T change this time, either - I mean - c'mon, LOOK at me!" That was terrible. Tack that arrogant delivery on to the situation in question and you've got a moment in Who canon that ought to be BURIED for all time's sake.


    To be fair, Will, once you had Romana "trying on" regenerations until she found one that the Doctor would accept, regenerations were never the same. I'm more annoyed that they will undoubtably never acknowledge if this counts as one of the twelve regenerations. Sure, we all expect them to figure a way around that limitation once it becomes necessary, but in the meantime I'm still keeping track.

    I've been listening to the Podshock review and Louis is cracking me up because he's hitting all the points I mentioned in my initial post.

    I'm going "Full Circle" and putting my avatar back to what it was when I first joined. :)
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     Monday, July 07 2008 @ 07:46 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am]
    [Quote  by:  Tom Hagen]
    Regeneration is a "rite of passage" for viewers only as much as the actor playing the Doctor changes. Which, especially for kids, is a big deal. I don't think that changes and arguably the notion that regeneration might not mean change will keep a little bit more of a cliffhanger for when Tennant does change.
    But it's always meant that - until now. And frankly, I choose to call foul. I'm not alone, either.
    It's, obviously, totally cool to have one's belief about what a regeneration should/should not be. If it didn't work for ya, it didn't work for ya.

    However, I do feel compelled to note that it has not "always meant" that a Doctor was changing. This has precedent, as so very many ideas in the RTD era have, in the comic — specifically in the DWM Eighth Doctor run. It's really fundamental to the understanding of the RTD era that he was such a fan of that run that he was quite prepared to in effect wholly canonize it by letting the Eighth/Ninth regeneration tale happen in DWM. There are tons of ideas we've seen in the last four years that come in whole or in obvious part from that run. Just as the dangers of looking into the heart of the TARDIS and the whole "Bad Wolf" thing comes from "The Flood", the non-regenerative regeneration comes from "The Final Chapter"/"Wormwood". I don't think in his heart of hearts RTD believed was doing something "new" with this episode, just something that hadn't been seen on TV.

    I think it's also important to remember that regeneration is a concept that's been screwed with almost every time it's been depicted. What the hell was the "Watcher"? Or the "Valeyard"? Why was Cho-Je needed in "Planet of the Spiders"? How can the HIgh Council impose a particular body on the regenerative process? Why would anesthesia be "definitively" disruptive to the process in a way that cyanide poisoning wouldn't? Indeed, why is cyanide poisoning something the Tenth Doctor could "get over" but spectrox toxaemia isn't? How can Romana "shop" for a new body on a whim when there's no actual physical need to regenerate? How can a Time Lord "opt out" of regeneration? Why would multiple bullets for the Seventh Doctor been something that he would've "gotten over" had he not been taken to the hospital, whereas a single bullet felled the Master? How can the first 15 hours of a regeneration cycle be suddenly so important 9 regenerations in?

    It's cool not to like what happened in this instance, but it's hardly fair to say that the parameters of regeneration have been fixed to any degree of sacrosanctity.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Monday, July 07 2008 @ 08:36 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical]
    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am]
    [Quote  by:  Tom Hagen]
    Regeneration is a "rite of passage" for viewers only as much as the actor playing the Doctor changes. Which, especially for kids, is a big deal. I don't think that changes and arguably the notion that regeneration might not mean change will keep a little bit more of a cliffhanger for when Tennant does change.
    But it's always meant that - until now. And frankly, I choose to call foul. I'm not alone, either.
    It's, obviously, totally cool to have one's belief about what a regeneration should/should not be. If it didn't work for ya, it didn't work for ya.

    However, I do feel compelled to note that it has not "always meant" that a Doctor was changing. This has precedent, as so very many ideas in the RTD era have, in the comic — specifically in the DWM Eighth Doctor run. It's really fundamental to the understanding of the RTD era that he was such a fan of that run that he was quite prepared to in effect wholly canonize it by letting the Eighth/Ninth regeneration tale happen in DWM. There are tons of ideas we've seen in the last four years that come in whole or in obvious part from that run. Just as the dangers of looking into the heart of the TARDIS and the whole "Bad Wolf" thing comes from "The Flood", the non-regenerative regeneration comes from "The Final Chapter"/"Wormwood". I don't think in his heart of hearts RTD believed was doing something "new" with this episode, just something that hadn't been seen on TV.

    I think it's also important to remember that regeneration is a concept that's been screwed with almost every time it's been depicted. What the hell was the "Watcher"? Or the "Valeyard"? Why was Cho-Je needed in "Planet of the Spiders"? How can the HIgh Council impose a particular body on the regenerative process? Why would anesthesia be "definitively" disruptive to the process in a way that cyanide poisoning wouldn't? Indeed, why is cyanide poisoning something the Tenth Doctor could "get over" but spectrox toxaemia isn't? How can Romana "shop" for a new body on a whim when there's no actual physical need to regenerate? How can a Time Lord "opt out" of regeneration? Why would multiple bullets for the Seventh Doctor been something that he would've "gotten over" had he not been taken to the hospital, whereas a single bullet felled the Master? How can the first 15 hours of a regeneration cycle be suddenly so important 9 regenerations in?

    It's cool not to like what happened in this instance, but it's hardly fair to say that the parameters of regeneration have been fixed to any degree of sacrosanctity.


    Darth, as usual, you help make the Podshock community all it can possibly be. Excellent points - frankly I was laughing out loud once you got to Cho-Je! Yes - the Watcher was always... bizarre. I guess there was a haunting quality to that choice I always accepted due to it being just kooky enough in a way I dug to go along with it at the time. And honestly, Mary Tamm turning into Lalla Ward full-time was always perfectly fine with me. The explanation really didn't matter at the time, as I was like 10 and crushing hardcore - lol. But point taken there as well. Romana essentially "burned" off lives just to look good for the Doc. Dumb, de-dumb dumb.

    The 8th Doctor comics are not something I followed, to be honest. I've dabbled in some of the comics/Big Finish, etc. material here and there, but never followed it all to the inth-degree. Just not enough time in my world with everything else I'm obsessed with, frankly. lol Razz Too many other things going on at once in my universe. But you raising these points from the Classic Series as well as those based on your knowledge from the 8th Doctor comics that helped inspire RTD (and you too, Linquel, on mentioning Ramona as well) makes the cop-out regen a little less offensive for me. It does. It's easy to lose sight of these things from the past in the moment, caught up in what "is" right now. I still suppose I consider what has been done for television "full-on" canon like many do, with everything skirting outside the rim as debatable, though. As Louis has said, that debate will likely NEVER end. And sadly, as we know, even the TV Movie's relevance in all this is STILL debatable too, due to the whole half human/half timelord bid placed there. Many say it doesn't apply. And many still think it does.

    As it is, I still hate the "toying with of emotions" that the false regen was used for in terms of "cliffhanger status." But it's done. I accept their decision for what it is - irritating and unecessary, but daring and bold all at the same time. RTD wins no matter the real score, as it will be talked about for years to come. That alone, is sick genius, to his credit.

    And I honestly think Sabalon said it best - "Yes, it's hard to keep 45 years of history logically straight between all the stories, but for the big parts of the show (regeneration, time travel, TARDIS, accidental knicker shots, non-violent problem solving), it does help." LOL - indeed, my friend.

    Truth is, the more we discuss, the better stuff always gets, in a strange sense. That's what I love about discussion like this. It helps us all understand or consider things from other points of view that we may not have up front, and there is always a great reward in that each time controversy of a sort likes to rear its ugly head.

    Human Biological Metacrisis = Bite Me, RTD.
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     Monday, July 07 2008 @ 11:52 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Will-I-Am] The 8th Doctor comics are not something I followed, to be honest. I've dabbled in some of the comics/Big Finish, etc. material here and there, but never followed it all to the inth-degree. Just not enough time in my world with everything else I'm obsessed with, frankly. lol Razz Too many other things going on at once in my universe.
    I can quite understand that the comics are not everyone's cup of tea. However, if you've only got time for a short walk into "other media", I would strongly recommend them.

    In the first place, they're easy to get nowadays, what with their recent reprinting into a few trades. Trying to collect DW comics issue-by-issue is an extremely frustrating and expensive sorta thing, but these new trades have eliminated the fuss.

    In the second, they're quite easily the best stuff ever produced in DWM. The whole run is this long, largely interconnected string of stories that's basically the only time DWM has had complete editorial control over their own destiny. There was no television production office to please, no "official" book series to navigate around, not even a well-established portrayal of the Doctor to mimic. It was the only form of visual Doctor Who going at the time, and thus the closest thing to a "televised Paul McGann era" out there. And the writers really rose to the challenge. It's a fantastic whirlwind of ideas, complete with arcs that feel like "seasons", recurring characters — really a whole narrative world. It's not like any other era of the comics.

    Moreover, there's so much in them that informs the RTD era, I can't help but think that one's appreciation of the time won't be improved by reading them. "Bad Wolf", parallel worlds, cat people, an obsession with referencing the First and Second Doctors' eras, the probable point of the Cult of Skaro (and especially now the "turncoat" nature of Caan), past companions poignantly unable to recognize the Doctor, the emotional power of transforming a companion into another life form only to revert her, the prototype for Wilf, the ability of the Doctor to make people better, new-look Cybermen — it's all there. And it's mostly in glorious color.

    It's certainly a good direction for you to take in the next two, long winters without the Doctor on your television screen.

    "I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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     Tuesday, July 08 2008 @ 02:01 AM EDT
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical]
    In the first place, they're easy to get nowadays, what with their recent reprinting into a few trades. Trying to collect DW comics issue-by-issue is an extremely frustrating and expensive sorta thing, but these new trades have eliminated the fuss.


    I take it you mean these...

    * Doctor Who - End Game (Complete Eighth Doctor Comic Strips Vol. 1)
    * Doctor Who - The Glorious Dead (Complete Eighth Doctor Comic Strips Vol. 2)
    * Doctor Who - Oblivion (Complete Eighth Doctor Comic Strips Vol. 3)
    * Doctor Who - The Flood (Complete Eighth Doctor Comic Strips Vol. 4)

    They don't appear to be available in the US, at least not printed locally. They look like they're UK imports. Bummer. I have found them through other means, but I'd have to start bringing my laptop on the train to read them. Smile

    I'm going "Full Circle" and putting my avatar back to what it was when I first joined. :)
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     Tuesday, July 08 2008 @ 11:41 AM EDT
    Incredible ratings and incredible AI, once again. Apparently as far as the general public/"not wes" are concerned, "Journey's End" fulfilled the promise of the cliffhanger.

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     Tuesday, July 08 2008 @ 12:11 PM EDT

    Many thanks, Darth. You too, Linquel. I'll be checking these out. And Linquel - there's always the option of "eVilBay" as another means to obtain actual copies, if so desired. Mr. Green

    But yes - these sound incredibly awesome. Sounds like a "missing season" worth catching up on indeed while the show itself is on the DL.

    Human Biological Metacrisis = Bite Me, RTD.
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     Tuesday, July 08 2008 @ 12:17 PM EDT
    [Quote  by:  Linquel]
    [Quote  by:  DarthSkeptical]
    In the first place, they're easy to get nowadays, what with their recent reprinting into a few trades. Trying to collect DW comics issue-by-issue is an extremely frustrating and expensive sorta thing, but these new trades have eliminated the fuss.


    I take it you mean these...

    * Doctor Who - End Game (Complete Eighth Doctor Comic Strips Vol. 1)
    * Doctor Who - The Glorious Dead (Complete Eighth Doctor Comic Strips Vol. 2)
    * Doctor Who - Oblivion (Complete Eighth Doctor Comic Strips Vol. 3)
    * Doctor Who - The Flood (Complete Eighth Doctor Comic Strips Vol. 4)

    They don't appear to be available in the US, at least not printed locally. They look like they're UK imports. Bummer. I have found them through other means, but I'd have to start bringing my laptop on the train to read them. Smile

    Some can be founs at the bottom of this page at WhoNA > Magazines and Comics, and other vendors/book/comic stores should carry them.

    Daleks don't accept apologies! YOU WILL BE EXTERMINATED!
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     Tuesday, July 08 2008 @ 06:35 PM EDT
    I haven't seen this mentioned but is anyone else upset that there was no resoultion provided for the Judoon or Shadow Proclomation. In The Stolen Earth the Doctor just left, did they just stand there and twidle their thumbs after that.

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