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joereform
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 52
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 Tuesday, July 18 2006 @ 02:47 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: Magrathea] WHY doesn't anyone like love and monsters?? I loved iT!!!
As for "the kid in us", being 11 I think i definatly have one in me! |
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Oh, there were plenty of people who absolutely loved it. The rest absolutely loathed it. There weren't a lot of people in between. It was undoubtedly the most controversial episode this season.
Glad to see an 11-year-old posting to the forum! I discovered Doctor Who when I was not much younger than you. Have you seen many episodes featuring the first eight doctors?
--Joe! |
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Facebook me! http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=583224917
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Magrathea
Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 136
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| Tuesday, July 18 2006 @ 03:19 PM EDT |
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| I've Seen The Unearthly Child and The Daleks, Genisis Of The Daleks, Inferno, Twin Dialemma, Five Doctors, Three Doctors, Revaltion of the Daleks, I'm sure I've seen more, but i cant think of them.. |
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"Now Brigadeer, have I ever led you astray?"
"On many ocassions!"
"Ah.. well... this will be the exception!"
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BadWolf
Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 316
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| Tuesday, July 18 2006 @ 10:09 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: Magrathea] WHY doesn't anyone like love and monsters?? I loved iT!!!
As for "the kid in us", being 11 I think i definatly have one in me! |
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I like Love and Monsters just fine. I took it as an experiment and veiwed it in that context.
I think many of the people doing the ratings forget that Dr. Who has its basis in childrens television.
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Forget the shooty dog thing!
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daveac
Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2636
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| Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 02:19 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: Doctor Whoovie]
1. The Girl in the Fire Place
2. School Reunion
3. Doomsday
4. The Impossible Planet
5. Love and Monsters
6. Army of Ghosts
7. The Satan Pit
8. The Age of Steel
9. The Rise of the Cybermen
10. Tooth and Claw
11. New Earth
12. Fear Her
13. Idiot's Lantern
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Great series final - and rankings:-
1. Doomsday
2. The Girl in the Fire Place
3. The Impossible Planet
4. The Satan Pit
5. Army of Ghosts
6. Tooth and Claw
7. School Reunion
8. The Age of Steel
9. The Rise of the Cybermen
10. New Earth
11. Fear Her
12. Idiot's Lantern
13. Love and Monsters
Ooooh! harder than I thought. Already edited and changed 1 and 2 around.
Cheers, daveac
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daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP,
cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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Louis
Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 3075
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| Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 03:54 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: daveac]
Ooooh! harder than I thought. Already edited and changed 1 and 2 around.
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I know the feeling... With the exception of probably my top 3 and bottom 3, I keep wanting to go and rearrange the order of several the middle ranking episodes... But so far, I have resisted going in to edit them.
Cheers,
Louis |
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☛ Follow me on Twitter at http://twitter.com/LouisTrapani ♥ ♥
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tarashnat
Registered: 08/17/05
Posts: 3062
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| Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 05:21 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: tarashnat]
My rankings last year for series 1 looked like this (I did not dislike nor loathe any episodes):
Loved
The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances
The Unquiet Dead
Dalek
Father's Day
Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways
Enjoyed
The Long Game
The End of the World
Rose
Alright
Boom Town
Aliens of London/World War Three
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My rankings for series 2 are as follows (I did not dislike nor loathe any episodes this time as well):
Loved
The Girl in the Fireplace
The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit
Tooth and Claw
The Idiot's Lantern
Enjoyed
School Reunion
Army of Ghosts/Doomsday
Love & Monsters
Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel
New Earth
The Christmas Invasion
Alright
Fear Her
In general I liked the second series more than the first, but it is only a matter of degrees. I don't think that Fear Her is that far below the level of the rest of the series as my ranking may suggest. I just couldn't bump it up to the next level in good conscience.
Taras |
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Daleks don't accept apologies! YOU WILL BE EXTERMINATED!
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mad4plaid
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 880
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| Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 06:09 PM EDT |
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Taras,
I found it interesting that you put both of the series 2 two-parters under your "enjoyed" category. I just thought you'd rank them higher somehow.... |
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supremacy is relative
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tarashnat
Registered: 08/17/05
Posts: 3062
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| Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 06:49 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: mad4plaid] Taras,
I found it interesting that you put both of the series 2 two-parters under your "enjoyed" category. I just thought you'd rank them higher somehow.... |
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I would have really liked to have had loved the two Cyberman stories, but there were just enough elements in them that kept me from ranking them higher relative to other stories. The bar for this series was higher, but also my expectations were higher as well. Also, it seems to me that RTD has enough time/energy to follow thru on one of his stories to the level that I expect, and this year that story was Tooth and Claw. Getting back to the Cyberman stories, I was let down by the whole alternate universe version of them. I was really hoping to see how the Cybermen of our universe could be improved as a threat to the Doctor. Also, the endings were too "deus ex machina" as opposed to the Doctor having to struggle to resolve the story. There was enough in last year's Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways that it didn't suffer as much from that type of ending.
Now, I did rank the other (there were three) two-parter in my "Loved" category.
Taras |
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Daleks don't accept apologies! YOU WILL BE EXTERMINATED!
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DarthSkeptical
Registered: 03/11/06
Posts: 1129
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| Wednesday, July 19 2006 @ 07:28 PM EDT |
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All-round, from the perspective of appealing to fans of the classic series and absolutely brand new viewers alike, I still think the strongest episode of the season is "Tooth and Claw". I can't even remember how many times I've seen this episode, and how many new viewers I've shown it to with universal acclaim. [The same can indeed be said of "The Christmas Invasion", depending on how you view the "season"].
"Girl in the Fireplace" is next on the list for me.
The "Satan" duology is third on the list, if only because it's derivative of so many other commonly known science fiction works. However it's my favorite two-parter since the series returned in 2005.
After that comes "School Reunion".
Then, "Fear Her". Absolutely definitive episode on the fun, comfortable banter between the Tenth Doctor and Rose. And, I'm sorry, the coolest aliens. Very appealing if you're a fan of the DWM comic strips.
After that, you get into episodes which you kinda have to already be a fan to like. This doesn't make them worse, necessarily—just not easy to judge on the same scale.
"Love and Monsters" is maybe the most successful of all these, because it can be most taken on its own. Its internal structure is such that it reads like a good mystery.
"New Earth" is way better than its predecessor, "The End of the World". I like it. But it was so immediately trumped by the three episodes which followed it that for me it'll always kinda be an appetizer, not a meal. A pleasant appetizer, mind, but still. And it was an odd choice for the Tenth Doctor's first regular episode. I think I just would've preferred something wholly original in pole position, is all. (The pre-title teaser also just bugs me as being oddly weak.)
Close to the bottom of the list, and actually a poor episode, was "The Idiot's Lantern".
And now, the tricky bit. The Cyber Quartet. I tell ya right now, for the first three episodes, I thought we were in real, serious trouble. I've made my views known that "The Rise of the Cybermen" is weak, and that Graeme Harper was just not the man for directing all four of these episodes, and Tom McRae couldn't plot his way out of a paper bag. But there was some serious redemption when RTD picked up the storytelling baton.
So, at the very bottom of the season's list for me was "Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel".
Now, sure, that gave us the necessary background to then make "Army of Ghosts/Doomsday" successful. But it still feels more like RTD made a silk purse our of a sow's ear than that I need to go back and re-evaluate my first impression of those awful, awful episodes. Seriously, I felt like I had my emotion chip removed when watching those two.
So where to put "Ghosts" and "Doomsday"? On the one hand, they're remarkable. Taken as closure for Mickey and the Tyler family, they're great. As a way to write a companion out of the series, I'm not sure it's been done better. But, Harper's just unimaginative Sorry, I know that's blunt, but I've never gotten what all the adulation was about, even back in the "Androzanni" days.
A good example of this is the difference between Euros' use of the camera to focus on the Doctor's sensory organs and Harper's. If we look in "Tooth" we see movement that emphasizes the Doctor's tongue as he's licking the conservatory wall, and his ear as it's listening for the beast. In "Fear Her", we get an odd moving shot of the Doctor smelling for things. Both of these speak to the plot and they emphasize the more sensory nature of this Doctor. In "Ghosts" we get a magnified view of the Doctor's eye, which is kinda cool visually, but it tells us nothing about the plot or the Doctor's character. It's just camera trickery for the sake of being cool.
More to the point, "Tooth"s use of the camera, as well as what we got by Hawes in "The Christmas Invasion" and "School Reunion", and Strong in the Satan duology, made these episodes feel epic. And yet, the story with the most epic storyline felt unusually flat. Only the "Rose in Pete's world" bits really felt epic to me—and that's not for a lack of scripted material.
Harper simply dropped the ball—at least until the closing minutes of "Doomsday", where he did give us something that actually added to what was being provided by the actors and script writer.
So, "Rise/Age", take your place at the back of the line. "Army", you can go ahead of "Fear Her", I guess. And "Doomsday" is about on a par with "School Reunion"—with very little thanks given to Harper's contributions.
However, these rankings are really only for fans of classic DW. I still think, overall, this entire arc would have been much, much better without Cybermen. Four whole episodes lost to derivative Cybermen (even if their derivation now makes more sense) is just far too much. I hope we're not in a trend where a classic alien is necessary to wrap up the season. Here's hoping that somehow we'll be able to end next year on something more like "The Satan Pit". How much cooler would this all have been had this four-episode arc been about aliens never before seen in Doctor Who? Ones for whom a whole backstory were gradually developed over the weeks? Ones who were perhaps manipulating the Time War from that other dimension?
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"I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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mad4plaid
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 880
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| Thursday, July 20 2006 @ 12:08 PM EDT |
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| [Quote by: DarthSkeptical] I hope we're not in a trend where a classic alien is necessary to wrap up the season. |
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Now that is something I completely agree with. Not sure that two times makes a precedent, but it certainly causes us to say "are they going to do this everytime?" I don't want this to get "formulaic" each series end.... |
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supremacy is relative
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Anubis
Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 1
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| Thursday, July 20 2006 @ 02:41 PM EDT |
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Hey guys, just a newbie here to share his thoughts on this series.
For me this series was one of peaks and troughs, I though series one was far more consistant in terms of its story quality, the hits were higher and the lows were certainly lower. I felt that thematically it suffers in comparision with the previous series as it lacked the running arc (Nine's survivors guilt) which lent series one a more cohesive narrative.
I didn't grow to dislike Rose as a fair number of the online fandom did, but overall I thought her characterization was poorer and displayed her as less than the strong young woman I got to know over thirteen episodes last year.
I love both DT and Ten dearly but please, less of the SHOU-TING next year 
Hyperbole aside, here are my personal episode rankings for this year (In decending order):
The Impossible Planet / The Satan Pit:
Love, Love, Love, Love, LOVED it, absolutly the epitome of everything that Doctor Who can and SHOULD be, Great writing, perfectly fleshed out and interesting secondary characters, incredible production values and a chilling atmosphere.
School Reunion:
Having had limited exposure to the older episodes I know that nostalgia is a none factor in my enjoyment of this episode, I thought using Sarah Jane was a logical continuation of last years themes of the effect the Doctor on the lives of the people whom he meets (I just wish this had fed more into Roses eventual departure but hey). Some great humour and of course Tony Head made this episode really special (the pool scene was fantastic!).
Army of Ghosts / Doomsday:
Cybermen Vs Daleks had the potential to be a real fanwank of all flash and no substance but it was portrayed in a logical and mature fashion (and yay for Dalek/Cybermen smacktalk!). DT was on top form this week really seeming to settle in the role, however there was a smack of contrivance about Rose's departure (I feel it would have had more resonance if it was volentary) but this didn't detract from my vast enjoyment.
Tooth and Claw:
Aside from the superfluous kung-fu monks and "we are not amused" starting to grate I loved this episode from start to finish, from Rose's terrible attempt at effecting a Scottish accent to Ten's amazement at seeing the werewolf. I thought this was a great standalone outing and a great episode to get new people hooked.
The Idiot's Lantern:
A very enjoyable fourty-five minuates, great reprodction of the period and creepy if under-developed villian, I shared Louis's dislike at the science displayed vis a vis the victims but the parts that worked distracted me from its story problems.
New Earth:
Frustrating, I really liked the concepts for this episode, the laboratory, Rose being taken over and the Face of Boe's message but somewhere around the half-way point it seemed to run out of steam and spend the last half running away from extras with a suspicous lack of ailments for (every disease in the galaxy) and the solution was the very definition of Satsuma. Again great humour but it came down in execution.
The Girl in the Fireplace:
Along with a certain other episode this appears to be a "love or hate" episode for most fans, I am somewhat indifferent, there were certainly some good moments "Here comes the on-comming storm" and bad (Vulcan mind-meld) and the Doctor's apparent abandoning of Rose and Mickey without a second though. Enjoyable but not essential.
Rise of the Cybermen / The Age of Steel:
Overall rather disappointing, I fail to see why this couldn't have been set on Mondas and showed the origin of the Cybermen proper as seeing a race driven to choosing this new existance instead of being forced by a hammily acted Davros-alike. Also the re-introduction of Pete severed to only retread ground covered beautifully by Fathers Day last year and only bogged down the proceedings. All this having been said the production values were very impressive for a TV show and as wiz bang television it was certainly entertaining.
Fear Her:
To quote Louis "They were attacked by a scrible", that aside the episode was medicore and somewhat boring, though there were some good moments and lines these could not save it.
Love & Monsters:
I can't remember an episode of a show that has been this contraversial for quite a few years, similarly to New Earth this really did feel like an episode of two halfs. I was enjoying the different style and tone of the episode, again showing how the Doctor changes the lives of the people he encounters dramatically, but as soon as Peter Kay transformed that was it, faces on bum cheeks, awfull dialogue, a pathetic solution to the monster, confusing "revelations" about Eltons mother and the less spoken of the slab the better.
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Doctor Whoovie
Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 794
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| Thursday, July 20 2006 @ 06:36 PM EDT |
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Let the Embassy Speak
I have tallied up the mean score for each episode on the site poll (Note currently from Love and Monsters onward must be considered provisional as voting is still open)
Episode name Groans out of five
1 Doomsday 4.75
2 Army of Ghosts 4.58
3 The Satan Pit 4.52
4 Girl in the Fireplace 4.43
5 School Reunion 4.34
6 The Impossible Planet 4.32
7 Tooth and Claw 4.19
8 Age of Steel 3.61
9 Rise of the Cybermen 3.52
10 New Earth 3.42
11 Fear Her 3.24
12 Love and Monsters 2.96
13 Idiot's Lantern 2.81
This is interesting.
There appears to be three main distributions.
Positions 1 -7 appear to all be very strong episodes with mean scores which are very close (within +/-10%)
A second distribution includes positions 8 - 10 with more run of the mill/average episodes.
The final ditribution is in positions 11 -13 with the "weakest episode". To be fair, it is unclear whether "Fear her" should be in the middle or bottom distribution.
This brings us to "Love and Monsters" although this comes in at position 11, it is unlike any other episode. The voting for virtually all the episodes was roughly Gaussian, Love and Monsters was an exception with the voting roughly flat across 1 -5 (0 got a much lower share of the vote)
NB: there is a blip on the poll for Age of Steel, it appears to have a very disproportionate number of zero votes.
Another way of looking at the data is to rank the stories by the percentage of "5 groans" given to each.
episode name %age of voters giving 5
1. Doomsday 83.5%
2. Army of Ghosts 66.1%
3. Girl in the Fireplace 62.2%
4. The Satan Pit 61.8%
5. The Impossible Planet 49.2%
6. School Reunion 49.0%
7. Age of Steel 40.5%
8. Tooth and Claw 40.0%
9. Rise of the Cybermen 26.3%
10. Love and Monsters 19.7%
11. Fear Her 15.2%
12. New Earth 10.6%
13. Idiot's Lantern 6.7%
I think the second ranking is perhaps more representative though it divereges from my personal ranking (I don't know anyone who liked the Satan Pit more than The Impossible Planet).
I will redo this once poll voting closes.
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In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed are Kings
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Will-I-Am
Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 146
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| Thursday, July 20 2006 @ 10:58 PM EDT |
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Well, overall, I think I like Series 2 equally when compared to Series 1.
Series 1 had some better writing overall when looking back on it, but felt flat in other areas. Visually, at times, it seemed restrained, and that was likely due to budgetary constraints upon the show's return, whereas this season, they threw much more polish at the visual aspects overall, but some of the writing felt a bit empty at times. Nothing abhorantly awful, mind you (Not even L&M, so zip it), but more of moments where it seemed a bit, I dunno... off, I guess. Again, it's darned close for me between the two, as they both have strengths and weaknesses.
Eccleston and Tennant both own the role in their own wonderful ways like all Doctors come and gone, and I think David will only excel in the role with some better scripts next year and a full run under his belt. He's really done a smashing job taking the reigns.
I really think next season will tell all, in a sense. They've played with some elements, broken some new ground, and truly brought the series into the 21st century as we could've only imagined many years ago in the series' absence.
That said, next year I expect them to "get the balance right." (sorry, a little Depeche blaring right now - seems appropriate) 
And with that, my ratings on this season, with my favorites from top to bottom:
"The Girl in the Fireplace" - Yes, my favorite as well. Really, just gangbusters all around in every aspect. Moffat is KING. He understands the Doctor as a character, and the writing shows that. I could go on and on about this story, but I won't. It's brilliance speaks for itself, and quite literally in that one line of dialogue. Ken - you know the one.  *****
"The Impossible Planet" - "Strong" indeed, but just short of perfect. I can honestly say "GitF" IS, and that's why it's tops. I agree largely that the second half of this story makes it fall somewhat short as a whole. Fantastic, nonetheless. It's ode to classic Who and our first rock quarry for the new Series still = *****
"Doomsday" - What else can I say? Plotholes or not, it's still got it all. A TREMENDOUS conclusion. And the impact of the ending is not soon forgotten, nor shall it ever be. New Who at it's A-Game best, running on all cylinders. **** 1/2
"School Reunion" - As has been noted repeatedly, it's not the best story in general, but really can't be in order to avoid getting in the way of Sarah Jane and her reconcilation on her past with the Doctor, as well as his understanding of the impact he leaves on "those left behind." It's still top-notch new Who that obviously gives us more of the ties to the classic series we continue to hunger for, which makes it invaluable. ****
"Love & Monsters" - Controversy! LOL - look, I can't continually defend it on the grounds that so many choose to destroy it on - it's all a matter of opinion, as we all know. And as has been said, I wouldn't want this kind of story every week, but for a daring detour into trying another new angle with the current series, it was something different and special. And that made it memorable for everyone, for better or worse. And for that alone, I commend it. ****
"The Satan Pit" - Though slightly flawed for the continuation of such a great overall story, this one's still incredibly well done. The Beast is perhaps the most impressive effect yet in the new series. A little tipsy in the narrative at times, as well as just falling prey to conventional avenues to move the story forward, but nonetheless - darn good. ****
"The Age of Steel" - All about payoff, baby. For whatever "Rise of the Cybermen" lacks setting things up, it all comes rushing in with that blast from the Doctor in frame one of this second part. The Lumic-Cybers are great fun, and the zeppelin finale was quite epic in scope and scale. Overall, solid as STEEL. ****
"Army of Ghosts" - A very intelligent, carefully paced first act to an overall fantastic story. Torchwood is handled nicely, and the setup to the events in "Doomsday" couldn't have been better. Probably the most consistent 1st part leading into its conclusion this season. ****
"Rise of the Cybermen" - All setup and little payoff makes me a frustrated Who-fan! Ah well, we all know how this one goes. It almost feels unfair to judge it as a stand-alone episode, but we got it first, instead of one BIG Cyber-story altogether. Really, though, anything this lacks is brought in head-on upon the second half, so these feelings are just observational in the strictest sense. Still, for all setup, it's beautifully realized. *** 1/2
"Tooth and Claw" - Good, but a little too conventional. Not that there's anything wrong with a classic "monster-in-the-manor" type story, but the Torchwood bit at the end just kind've makes the whole thing implode in on itself, to an extent. Feels a bit... forced. Overall, it's still great fun to watch, but not completely together, IMO. ***
"The Idiot's Lantern" - Sort of middle of the road here. Too heavy-handed in some aspects, while being nothing short of classic Who in others. A mixed bag to be sure, but still a fun one to sift through. ***
"New Earth" - As fun as it is to watch, it really just feels like what it essentially is - a second springboard into Series 2. Cassandra was splendid all over again, and the ending is a nice touch, but still - there's stronger material above it in this post. ***
"Fear Her" - Not bad, necessarily, but just not near the best, either. Again, some nice touches here and there, but on a whole just not the most stimulating material presented in the new Who. ***
All in all, a consistently entertaining season, regardless of rankings, quibbles and the lot. Like Series 1 before it, it had it's hills and valleys, but the ride was always fun and exciting.
BRING ON SERIES 3!!!  |
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Human Biological Metacrisis = Bite Me, RTD.
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Linquel
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 729
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| Friday, July 21 2006 @ 10:19 AM EDT |
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| I'm still mulling over how I'm going to rank the episodes in series 2, but I just have to say one more time how much I'm going to miss Jackie. I really liked her character. It's a real drag that in losing Rose as a companion we lose some other really fun characters. |
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I'm going "Full Circle" and putting my avatar back to what it was when I first joined. :)
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joereform
Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 52
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| Friday, July 21 2006 @ 11:41 AM EDT |
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| [Quote by: Linquel] I'm still mulling over how I'm going to rank the episodes in series 2, but I just have to say one more time how much I'm going to miss Jackie. I really liked her character. It's a real drag that in losing Rose as a companion we lose some other really fun characters. |
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Reminds me of another classic moment in "Doomsday" when she tells Peter "There's never been anyone else." The glance between the Doctor and Mickey was perfect! |
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Facebook me! http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=583224917
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