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tarashnat
Registered: 08/17/05
Posts: 3062
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 Sunday, April 06 2008 @ 07:16 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: seanhuxter] [Quote by: silvanthalas]
And was I the only one who was scratching their head over the way some of Gray's lines were delivered? At first I was just thinking that they had to do some rerecording of his lines, but then as you listen, at times those lines sounded more and more like Barrowman. Ok, the voice gives a real brotherly quality to the actor who plays Gray, but I was getting the impression that it was Barrowman himself dubbing lines over the actor's speaking. It was really off-putting the handful of times I caught it. |
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I'm glad you said that. I thought so too. There were some lines that didn't sound like Gray at all, but like John Barrowman dubbing him in. I was wondering if it was my hearing or what, but the more I think of it (and on a second viewing) the more I think you're right - that Barrowman was called in to overdub some of those lines.
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On another board, I had posted the following sentence regarding the character of Gray:
| [Quote Also, at some points it almost felt as if his voice sounded like John Barrowman's. Weird. |
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So it seems like there may have been some playing around with the voices there. |
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Daleks don't accept apologies! YOU WILL BE EXTERMINATED!
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merlin_mccarley
Registered: 07/30/06
Posts: 733
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| Sunday, April 06 2008 @ 07:58 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: tarashnat] | [Quote by: DarthSkeptical] Actually, no, we haven't known this canonically until this episode. It was never stated onscreen that they were the same character, nor was it ever hinted that they might have been. Even the name "Doctor Sato" derives entirely from the credits to "Aliens of London". |
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This is a misinterpretation of the term canon. Canon, with regards to fiction, means "official", and not just what is shown on screen. Regardless of the desires of the consumers of the fictional universe, it is the creator/owner of the universe who establishes (or declines to establish) the canon. I can yell until I am blue in the face that something did or did not happen, but that does not make it canon, even if most of fans side with me. {Despite claims made to the contrary on Podshock by yours truly.) |
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The point that is being missed here is that in 10... Sod that 1 year it won't matter a whit that we argued the point ad nausium here when it was first speculated uppon. The Fact that it was mentioned as an aside on this episode will be remembered. The very term Cannon is derived from an event that is still argued today (I.E. Council of Nicaea) so it still depends on interpertation. This is the reason for my initial post stating that this is the cannonicial proof that it is the same character. In truth, I could not give a overripe bannanna wheather it is the same character or not, but it's there for all to see that someone did.
Cheers,
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I'm a Time Traveler, I point and laugh at archaeologist.
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TorchwoodPDX
Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 23
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| Monday, April 07 2008 @ 02:53 AM EDT |
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Goodbye and thanks for all the.... sex?
I was thrilled when Owen died, and more happy that he died twice. But that is just me.
I am hoping that they do not fill Torchwood back up with crew if they do series 3. One of the things that kills me is the writers try to do too much in one story.
Tons of plots and human emotion that its a race to get it all in and keep the main storyline afloat.
Take exit wounds were they try to....
Blow up the city
Bring back Spike (sorry had to)
Reunite Jack with this Brother (so wanted more then that)
Have Tosh and Owen come to terms (Hate Owen but huge waste of all of that setup over the last season)
Have Gwen's husband finally get that her job is important.
One of those story lines would have been a great episode, but they do 4 stories in one episode.
And the whole thing seems rushed and messy. But at least there where no giant life sucking monster this time.
I hope they keep the nest empty for Series 3 and run with the story lines they have yet to work out.
Jacks thing for Gwen
Spikes thing for Jack
and my need to see more eye candy, ah I mean Yanto!
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DarthSkeptical
Registered: 03/11/06
Posts: 1129
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| Monday, April 07 2008 @ 03:45 AM EDT |
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[Quote by: tarashnat] | [Quote by: DarthSkeptical] Actually, no, we haven't known this canonically until this episode. It was never stated onscreen that they were the same character, nor was it ever hinted that they might have been. Even the name "Doctor Sato" derives entirely from the credits to "Aliens of London". |
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This is a misinterpretation of the term canon. Canon, with regards to fiction, means "official", and not just what is shown on screen. Regardless of the desires of the consumers of the fictional universe, it is the creator/owner of the universe who establishes (or declines to establish) the canon. I can yell until I am blue in the face that something did or did not happen, but that does not make it canon, even if most of fans side with me. {Despite claims made to the contrary on Podshock by yours truly.) |
| Well, there are actually two definitions of canon. One is the one you're referring to, and one is the one I'm talkin' about. Canon can also mean "the works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine", as in the Shakespare canon. This refers to the totality of work accepted to be authentically written by Shakespeare. It doesn't refer to commentary, review, behind-the-scenes waffling or anything else: just the actual work itself. And this is by far the more common definition that people are arguing about in Doctor Who canonical discussions.
Such debates typically wonder, "Do the books count? Do the audio plays count? Is the new series a separate instance of Doctor Who lore than the classic series?"
You do sometimes get the question of whether information outside the boundaries of the narratives themselves count, but these discussions are far less common. I mean, that notion of canonicity runs up against the immediate, modern barrier that RTD is an inveterate liar. So, for the narrower definition, you can't take what he says in an interview as "official" just because he is the current "canon keeper". As was proved in episode 1 of the 4th series, you can't even take the copy of story "officially" released to the press as the canonical version of that story, as there was a small but significant difference between that version and the definitive one broadcast on television.
It very much matters what makes it to screen with this fictional work, because the "official" sources have an interest in deliberate misdirection so as to maximize the effect of surprise (hence, "I've no interest in putting the Master in Doctor Who" and "Billie Piper isn't leaving the series"). Official sources are also subject to fallibility with respect to unforeseen events (hence, "Donna is a one-off companion" and "Donna's parents are coming back in series 4.")
In many ways, it is the difference between what is said behind-the-scenes and what happens onscreen that determines the value of the canon to people. If the onscreen result is pleasantly better than what the official spokespeople say, people keep watching. If it's not, people get "burned" and walk away from it.
It's extremely problematic to apply the broader, liturgical definition to fiction. Fiction isn't about finding "truth" or "rules". It's about the narrative itself. |
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"I think of myself as ambitious in casting terms, and I know that Bonnie [Langford] has the potential to make the part totally unirritating . . ." — JNT, 1986
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seanhuxter
Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 825
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| Monday, April 07 2008 @ 06:16 AM EDT |
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Cannon, Schmannon.
If I see it on-screen, it's official. If it's in a side-book, it is not, regardless of what the "author" (in this case, corporation) says.
Did the Doctor fight aliens in the Wild West with Martha Jones (from one of the books?) Of course not. I read it, so how can it not be?
Anything I read is to me speculation. If it's on-screen, it happened.
Even then, it can be re-interpreted. Is the Doctor half-human? Of course not. Just because he claims that in the 1996 film, doesn't make it true. He could be lying, he could be delerious, he could actually wish he was. But is he?
Not in my opinion.
As for "what the author says goes", nonsense to that too. In "Blade Runner", there is no conclusive proof Deckard is a replicant no matter how many times Ridley Scott tears his hair out yelling "HE IS!".
It wasn't obvious onscreen, and that's where it counts.
Sean.
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One solid hope is worth a cartload of uncertainties.
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tarashnat
Registered: 08/17/05
Posts: 3062
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| Monday, April 07 2008 @ 12:22 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: seanhuxter] Cannon, Schmannon.
If I see it on-screen, it's official. If it's in a side-book, it is not, regardless of what the "author" (in this case, corporation) says.
Did the Doctor fight aliens in the Wild West with Martha Jones (from one of the books?) Of course not. I read it, so how can it not be?
Anything I read is to me speculation. If it's on-screen, it happened.
Even then, it can be re-interpreted. Is the Doctor half-human? Of course not. Just because he claims that in the 1996 film, doesn't make it true. He could be lying, he could be delerious, he could actually wish he was. But is he?
Not in my opinion.
As for "what the author says goes", nonsense to that too. In "Blade Runner", there is no conclusive proof Deckard is a replicant no matter how many times Ridley Scott tears his hair out yelling "HE IS!".
It wasn't obvious onscreen, and that's where it counts.
Sean.
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So, Ridley Scott trumps Philip K. Dick, oh, the HORROR!!! Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? doesn't count? Deckard was not an android... |
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Daleks don't accept apologies! YOU WILL BE EXTERMINATED!
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Tin Dog Podcast
Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 599
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| Tuesday, April 08 2008 @ 05:30 AM EDT |
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hey its that time again... the last of the Torchwood doubles...
here |
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Guest Host on the WHOCAST
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romana_II
Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 182
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| Tuesday, April 08 2008 @ 11:43 PM EDT |
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I'm still in shock.
I wasn't the biggest fan of Owen, but I loved Tosh.
Makes me really interested in how series 3 will pan out.
And did anyone else notice the ending shot of Jack, Gwen and Ianto standing together in the hub was very similar to the ending shot from last season.
Great episode.
I liked the twist on John Hart's character, the atmosphere and tension throughtout this story and finally explaining way the Aliens in London plot hole that bugged the hell out of me last episode.
Other than the silliness with the grim reapers, it was great.
Very moving. I don 't think I can watch it again for sometime, I'm such a big girl sometimes.
I'll miss Owen and Tosh... just then they were getting interesting, but life goes on. Looking forward to another season of a most likely new Torchwood team.
4.5/5 for me. |
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bye bye david :(
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daveac
Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2636
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| Tuesday, April 15 2008 @ 02:54 PM EDT |
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BBC 2 have just repeated this episode again tonight - and would you believe it - I got the same bit of dirt in my eye as when watching the first time.
Sad to see Tosh go - but what a sendoff.
Cheers, daveac |
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daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP,
cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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Linquel
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 729
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| Friday, June 20 2008 @ 08:41 PM EDT |
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I finally watched the rest of series 2. I thought the finale was ok. I never did warm up to Owen, so his death wasn't that big a deal to me. That they killed off Tosh, too, was a bit of a surprise. But the thing that cracked me up the most was, this past weekend on the CIA podcast Dave mentioned the Justice League of America in some context. So when immortal Jack was buried back in 27 AD Cardiff, all I could think about was the Justice League episode where some of the league got sent back in time and one of them buried their communicator in the ground where the JLA headquarters would one day stand. It was "nuclear powered" so it was still working thousands and thousands of years later, and the JLA was able to detect it and determine where in the past the others were stranded. 
I'll watch series 3 when it comes out, but Torchwood is still in 3rd place of the three shows in the Whoniverse.
/-edit-/
Just did a quick Google search and found this...
In the original cartoon, The Justice League, a nuclear battery from a JLA communicator buried on the JLA building site in the Cretaceous period enables the members to rescue others sent back in time by the original Legion of Doom.
And this...
(set phasers to snark)
"My Justice League mini-radio," the latter explains, "is powered by a tiny nuclear battery, which will last well over a hundred million years." Here his idea becomes a little suspect. He notes that Black Manta indicated they were stranded in 70 Million B.C. "All we have to do is add 1978 years, plus 252 days, and set the mini-radio to give off a trouble-alert signal at that time," he notes. There are so many fallacies with this that I’m not even going to bother. Even in terms of the goofiest comic book logic, this idea is a bit of a stretch.
So saying, they set the device—well, actually, they don’t, but we’ll assume they did—and then Aquaman scoops up a tiny hole and buries the device all of four or five inches deep. Back in the future, the remaining Superfriends sudden hear the signal. (Yeah, from under this tremendous building. Whatever.) Wonder Woman tracks the mystery signal with the "satellite direction finder." She bewildered to learn that it’s coming from beneath the Hall.
Superman uses his X-Ray Vision to locate the device. Punching through the floor, he produces the radio unit, which is in pretty good shape, all things considered. They take the artifact to the Geological Resarch Center for a little carbon dating (!), which proves a lot more precise than you would normally expect. (By the way, you apparently carbon date something by putting it on a metal tray and shining a spotlight on it.) "Carbon 14 dating of dirt on Aquaman’s radio," reveals A Scientist—who is, I swear, drawn as an Asian, "indicates it was buried in the Cretaceous Period, exactly 70,001, 978 years ago."
The Heroes realize that their buddies are trapped in the Past. Superman announces, "with my super-speed, I can handle the situation." (C’mon, you know he just says crap like that to bug the Flash.) So saying, he flies off into space. "Increasing his speed to beyond the barrier of light (??)," the Narrator explains, "Superman passes through a warp in time." Again, I’m amazed at how accurate this sort of thing is, for Supes quickly arrives at the exact, er, time spot where Aquaman and Apache Chief are waiting.
Ok...I'll stop now.  |
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I'm going "Full Circle" and putting my avatar back to what it was when I first joined. :)
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daveac
Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2636
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| Friday, June 20 2008 @ 08:58 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: Linquel] But the thing that cracked me up the most was, this past weekend on the CIA podcast Dave mentioned the Justice League of America in some context.
Ok...I'll stop now. |
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Glad to be of help
Cheers, daveac
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daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP,
cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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Linquel
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 729
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| Friday, June 20 2008 @ 09:05 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: daveac]
Glad to be of help
Cheers, daveac
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Holy insomniac, Dave. Don't you ever sleep? What is it there, 2am? Are you depriving yourself of sleep out of some kind of sympathy with Romana II since she has to stay up so late to join the podcasts?
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I'm going "Full Circle" and putting my avatar back to what it was when I first joined. :)
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daveac
Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2636
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| Friday, June 20 2008 @ 09:25 PM EDT |
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[Quote by: Linquel]
Holy insomniac, Dave. Don't you ever sleep? What is it there, 2am? Are you depriving yourself of sleep out of some kind of sympathy with Romana II since she has to stay up so late to join the podcasts?
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2.25 now
One of the joys of being retired.
Just don't ring me early in the morning.
Cheers, daveac
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daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP,
cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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daveac
Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2636
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| Saturday, June 21 2008 @ 05:38 AM EDT |
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[Quote by: daveac]
2.25 now
One of the joys of being retired.
Just don't ring me early in the morning.
Cheers, daveac
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Well I don't believe it.
It's now 8 hours later - I'm up and awake - it'a 10.35 am here in the UK
and there have been NO posts here - or on the WHOLE site - in between!!
Cheers, daveac
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daveac on blip.tv, TalkShoe, iTunes, LiveVideo, uStream, GE, Sci-Fi, DWO, DS & WTA, Dave C on WLP,
cooperda on AVF, dac100 on YouTube & PB, dac on Tiscali
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Linquel
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 729
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| Saturday, June 21 2008 @ 09:04 AM EDT |
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[Quote by: daveac]
Well I don't believe it.
It's now 8 hours later - I'm up and awake - it'a 10.35 am here in the UK
and there have been NO posts here - or on the WHOLE site - in between!!
Cheers, daveac
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That happened once over the last week I think, where I posted in the evening only to wake up the next day and see no new posts.  |
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I'm going "Full Circle" and putting my avatar back to what it was when I first joined. :)
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