Flesh and Stone: Spoilers!!!!!!

Idiom's picture

Idiom - Posted on 01 May 2010

“Respect the thing!”

Hooray! Finally a second part that lives up to the first part. I am a far happier man than two weeks ago. Then we’d had three episodes – one great one and two distinctly average ones. Now, the balance has swung in the opposite direction: three out of the last five episodes have been superb. I loved this and (despite a few things that I didn’t quite understand), and would give the whole story a ten out of ten!


·         Loved how the beginning side-stepped and how for a moment you weren’t sure as a viewer what had happened between last week and this week’s episode.

·         Terse, exciting, pacy and even more edge of the seat stuff than last week. The angels are such a great idea – just the flashes of these solitary, terrifying creatures. I do hope they appear again one day (although not too soon) – although the ending would leave us to believe otherwise. I wasn’t sure why they didn’t go for the sightless Amy – I wasn’t entirely convinced by the ‘they’re distracted and think you can see them’ line. They seem to know when they’re victims blink well enough. However, it did lead to such a tense scene that it didn’t pull me too much out of the story and I’m willing to go along with it.

·         The crack – I was happy that it was addressed face on rather than just teasing us each week. Is this how Moffat revises the ETD era? Has the whole of humanity forgotten the alien invasions of the past five years? Oh, I do hope so – bring some of the mystery and terror back into the earth-bound stories.

·         River Song. The mystery deepens and now Moffat has confirmed that she will be back and that the story will gradually unfold from end to beginning.

  • Amy - brillaint. Oh and the countdown!

·         The Doctor – great, great great! His anger, his almost insane genius, his sometimes alien lack of compassion, his complete naivety when it comes to women. Great. Thought I wouldn’t like what happens in the last scene, but it was ok – as Moffat says, what woman is not gonna want to have a go with the Doctor.

·         Octavian’s death scene! “I wish I’d know you better.” “You knew me at my best.”

·         Not sure why the clerics and River were after the Angel – was that ever explained?

Sheer brilliance. The best story for me since the Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. Let’s hope the rest of the series is like this!

Idiom's picture

But why has the modus operandi of the Angels changed. Now, you don't get sent back in time - you get your neck broken. Was that explained?

tarashnat's picture

Well, with all the cracks in time, maybe they can't send anyone back in time, or maybe they don't have the energy to send someone back.


I like how this story has some symmetry, with the bookends of scenes where you have to hold onto something to survive.

Have we done the crash of the Byzantium yet?

DWNY a New York City based Doctor Who meet up group.

I found the story to be rather confused and I think I'll need to watch it again to get the finer points. In both episodes there seemed to be a lot of filler and the writer in me whispers in my ear that it could probably have been condensed to a cracking one hour story...but as that's not the format then it's academic.

I absolutely HATED the end! This sort of scene has no place in Doctor Who and Mr Moffat needs to give his head a rattle before considering anything like this again.

But Alex Kingston in combat fatigues....MORE MORE MORE!!!!

Paul S. Mabley B.Sc.(Hons), MA

South Shields, UK / Kitchener, Ontario

Idiom's picture

I disagree. For me, the last few years' focus on the emotional sides of the characters has brought something which was lacking before in Doctor Who. We all loved the programme and the adventures but did we love the characters  - especially the companions - or were they just cyphers (sorry if the spelling's wrong). I like the way that the charcaters are more rounded out nowadays. It makes them more credible as human beings. It allows the audeince to become more emotionally invested and makes the experience a more satisfying one IMO anyway.


Idiom, do you not think it was quite an adult scene though? She tries to basically rip the Doctor's pants off!

Paul M etc etc

Shields and Canada

Idiom's picture

Yes, but if you watch again you'll see the sexual content was alluded to in euphemisms rather than stated explicitly. My 8-year-old daughter watched this and understood that Amy was wanted to kiss the Doctor. Nothing more than that.

As for older kids, they probably wouldn't blink an eyelid at this considering the lyrics and images in your average music video.

Here the Doctor turns down Amy. And from next week's preview we see him trying to push her back into the arms of her fiance - overall, not an unhealthy message I'd say.

All things considered, Amy wanting to jump the Doctor right then and there makes perfect sense: she's had 10 years of fascination with him, including driving her to see psychiatrists. She's then had to face the possibility of her death after traveling with him. Even though she's getting married, she wants to get it out of her system.

Now, whether that kind of thing belongs on a 'children's' program is another matter entirely. I think it's pretty safe to say that the program is growing up a bit under Moffat.

All in all, I really liked this story. I love the fact that we get the crack addresses a bit now, rather than waiting until the end of the season only to end up with a less than satisfactory result. It certainly adds a lot more speculation about what's going on. Anything and everything River Song is convoluted as ever and looks like it will remain so.

Okay, i'ts official, DW is now a parody of itself and Moffat IMO should be fired. I don't even care what the ratings are that was without a doubt the biggest let down from a good first parter ever and the worst piece of writing I've ever seen from the series, hands down. Where to begin?

Why should we trust Moffat in any of his scripts? He tells us Amy cannot open her eyes but then she does and for longer than a second...and she's okay but then the angels have left but then they are back and then...he rips off TWILIGHT ZONE again with vanishing people who are not remembered. And a generic time spillage as the villains. And the angels cannot be looked at directly in the eyes...but in BLINK they were. And in BLINK the angels were not breaking anyone's neck...okay so maybe these are different angels...

We have plan after plan of the Doc and the Doc keeps saying, "Oh Amy I've made a mistake," and even with angels...who let's face are really one trick ponies by the middle of this episode...even with them all around Amy, there's no tension at all. The Doc says she must walk normally...she doesn't and falls and nothing happens really.

We also have the Doctor: this great big space time event. Oh who cares! He's like God again. And everyone's talking about him all the time. "You should have known me when I was..."  "You are seeing me at my best,"  and more and more dialog telling us how mad, how great, how wonderful the Doctor is...but from what we see he's not!

And another thing: The Doc throws away the radio communicating him to Bob...but...later on, the angel faces the Doc and talks with Bob's voice, taking all their mystique, all their wonder and threat out of them! Added to that, we SEE them move, making them this era's Fendahl host...why show them moving when it was us not seeing them move that made them so great in BLINK.

Someone mentioned that Doc's theme getting on their nerves and by now they've used it over and over and over. Get a new musician but more importantly, get a new head writer, new producer and new everything.

I've been a strong proponent of Matt Smith but here he was terrible. Nothing he offers has any ring of truth in it this time, ditto Amy, in fact, she's a bit better than he was. River Song: nothing we find out is new: we know she's a criminal from the first moment. The mystery of the time period (oh suddenly there's a prison ship above) and none of the mystery of River is used effectively. More one liners, more ridiculous dialog and scenarios. And what? What was that that the Doc detected sucked the angels, the most powerful beings in the universe...they are fast and very strong and can't hold on to anything but the Doc and two women can? Why did the time spill stop? Does any of this make any sense?

Moffat seems to be making up his story as he goes along and never really editing it. It's awful. I am beginning to think his other stories during the RTD era were rewritten by RTD and made better by him. There's no way the man who wrote GIRL IN THE FIREPLACE could have written what is the worst scene I've ever seen in DW...

that final scene. Okay I can take adult but the way it is written and played is farce, comedy, or parody. The entire thing plays like some comedic skit from I dunno, the CATHERINE TATE SHOW or SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE. That single scene totally brought this show into the realm of TRASH TV. Nothing about was believeable, nothing about it was romantic or sexy or adult. In fact, it was nothing. It was played like it was nothing and it doesn't have one single thing to recommend it.

This second part really sucked. The fast paced explanations (hands up anyone who was sick to death of Amy saying, "Explain Doctor!") don't add up. The Doc should be offering explanations. The "clever" dialog isn't. I can truly say that I now hate this show and hope it changes soon but judging from next week's promos, it looks even worse.

In moments, Amy tells the Doc she wants to show him something, shows him a wedding ring, tells him she wants him as a last min fling, throws herself at him, and then flings herself onto a bed to offer herself to him...all in a totally unbelievable bad moment. Then without any conviction, the Doc states the thing is all about Amy...just like it was all about Rose when it was bad wolf or Martha when she roamed the world to stop the Master or Donna when she became the DoctorDonna (and for what it is worth, I hate all of those arc things: Rose's bad wolf was the worst part of season one, it made no sense--just give yourself a warning you can recognize, LAST OF THE TIME LORDS until this FLESH AND BLOOD just was the wworst plotted DW story ever so Martha's year that never was doesn't matter, and Donna becoming the Doctor in one of her worst acted bits was ludicrious.) The last year or two have required us to be patient and wait: well, the wait is over and I can be patient no longer: DOCTOR WHO once more sucks    

...the writing sucks, the acting sucks, the plots suck, the arcs suck, I can't stand the previews, which were in 2005 to 2009 exciting, making me want to see what was happening next. I could care less now. It's blatantly poor.



Idiom's picture

Chase, you don't like this? What a surprise!

Dalzo's picture

Ummm, no, it isn't "official" that Doctor Who is a parody of itself... That would be when Steven Moffat says it is (not to mention the BBC).

This was a good episode, not as successful as the first part but it was still tense, exciting and occasionally funny. I thought that Matt Smith once again shone as the Doctor. His diagnosis of Amy was great, totally inhuman (unhuman?) with his brilliantly honest remarks, not having time to try to reassure her.

Chase, let's take you comments one at a time and see if we can't sort them out.

1) Amy opens her eyes for more than a second - Yes she does, but I think it is reasonable for the Doctor to exaggerate the time she can open her eyes slightly, to really hit home that should she open her eyes it could be really bad news. I NEVER took the "second" literally. I didn't think the Doctor could work it out EXACTLY... He used the words "a second" to emphasize the danger Amy was in. To have this affect your enjoyment of a story takes "nit-picking" to a whole new level!

2) Ripped off "The Twilight Zone" again -  As I mentioned once before, that really isn't a reasonable criticism OR a sign of bad writing. All the stories in the world have probably been told somewhere and Doctor Who has a rich history of using old ideas as a base for new stories of Doctor Who. Besides, I (and probably the majority of the audience) haven't seen this particular "Twilight Zone" episode so I couldn't really care less about it being "ripped off". The idea of people vanishing from history is a Sci-Fi staple. Star Trek did it quite a few times. I thought it was done okay here but was only really a throwaway sketch, it had no real impact on the story (nor should have) apart from showing the danger of the time spillage.

3) The change of the Angels Modus operandi - Well, you gave an explanation yourself, they could be different Angels. That said, in this episode did they actually break anybodys neck? I have only seen it the once so far but are we sure it actually snapped Octavians neck? I know that he died, but how do we know that, now that they have become powerful again, they didn't send him to the past like their victims in "Blink". Maybe there was a sound effect of a neck snapping but I don't remember it. Like I said, I need to watch it again. The whole "looking in the eyes" thing is different from in "Blink" but I think it added to the story. In Doctor Who there is so much contradictions, and evolutions in monsters that I can forgive one more. The only real disappointing thing was we never found out what would actually have happened to Amy if she had kept her eyes open. Would she have become a full Angel? As for the Angels moving... I took this as a peak into their own view of the World. What they look like when not Quantum locked. I found this terribly creepy as it was so unexpected. It wouldn't have worked (obviously) if you saw this all the time but as a one off... it worked for me! The Angels not attacking Amy, as stated in the script, they were fleeing from the time spillage and really had no interest in Amy... This is what saved her, not the Doctor telling her to walk normally (like you said, she didn't) but if you were Amy, wouldn't you try... just to be on the safe side?

4) The Doctor not great and brilliant - I thought he was great AND brilliant. Matt Smith showed us a Doctor whose brain works so fast that even HE doesn't know what he is going to think of. This means that the Doctor is almost an observer of his own brain. He knows he will think of something but doesn't know what or when. This adds tension. It is important that the Doctor has to improvise as he goes along. If he was all powerful and knew the solutions to all the problems he comes across it would be very, very boring. The fact that he is constantly improvising, treading water until his brain clicks into gear is brilliant.

5) The Angels not being able to hold onto something when falling into the time spillage - How do we know a couple didn't? Maybe there are a few survivors. Even if there aren't, a whole army was hurtling towards the time leakage. It is quite conceivable that at any one time at least one Angel would be looking at another hence keeping them quantum locked and unable to grab hold of anything. Also, the Doctor told River and Amy to hold onto something. The Angels had no warning.

6) THAT final scene. I had heard that something cringemaking was gonna happen at the end of the episode. My first reaction was "Oh God No" but, having watched the scene a couple of times I have no problems with it... AT ALL! If the Doctor had been going along with it I would have had some issues but all the time he is fighting her off (I'm 907 years old and you're... getting married in the morning). In fact, it makes it much less likely that the Doctor "danced" with Madam De Pompadour and I, for one, am happy with that! As stated by another poster, the next episode shows the Doctor actively discouraging her by bringing Rory onto the scene. As for amy wanting to bed the Doctor, I don't find this unbelievable or out of character at all. The scene is pretty well written dialogue-wise (although whether you can trust somebody who uses the term "dialogue-wise" is up to you)

7) You can honestly say you hate the show - the fact that you are still watching it means that either you secretly love it and just like tearing it to shreds for fun (I don't believe this) or that you are a masochist who loves wasting his time watching something he hates. I have suggested it in the past but why not give Doctor Who a break for a couple of years. Dip back in if a new Doctor or Producer comes along to see if it works for you. You have never actually explained why you are still watching this show if it causes you so much grief (you have been aggrieved with it for almost two years now!).

8) "Die DW die" - you can kill it off by just not watching it... I refer you to point 7!!!

On another point, I love the promise that Steven Moffat gave that we will see the entire River Song storyline from start to finish (or vice versa) although I am not mad about Alex Kingston's acting I do find the character intriguing. The fact that we will get that continuity is very exciting. I am (slightly) interested in what Pandorica is but am not so excited by that nagging feeling I have that the Daleks will be back at the end of the season!

On a final note, I liked the fact that the Doctor referenced the Cyber-King and how nobody in London remembered it. As this was a MAJOR criticism by other people I am curious as to whether peoples rating of "The Next Doctor" will actually go up now. Personally, I never found that a problem and am not a big fan of that particular episode (or any of the "Specials" come to that), but I am curious as to whether that simple line will, in some peoples mind, improve that year and a half old story!

daveac's picture

In the Poll I voted 3 out of 5 - the story was good enough but I mark it down because of all the 'rule changes' in the lore of the Weeping Angels.

Will be chatting about it more on The Cultdom Collective Podcast at 2PM EDT time (Talkshoe ID 54821) - and hopefully on Podshock LIVE too.

Cheers, daveac

In the original Blink episode the angels were living on the potentional energy of the people they sent back in time.  This time they have another energy source so they do not need to do this.  The Doctor refers to the others as scavengers and these more as an army which could also explain the difference.

I give this a 4.5 out of 5. 


I don't think  the problem is the angel rules changed from BLINK, THAT can be explained. I don't like how the rules changed in this two parter from start to middle to end. Look, Amy had something in her eye, affecting her mind or something...then, well, she really didn't. Amy had to keep her eyes shut, then well, she really didn't have to. Amy had to walk like she was seeing and if not, the angels will detect her. Then she falls and...nothing happens.

The Doc shouts like a maniac, makes mistakes constantly, leaves Amy, leaves the lead cleric to die, and saves...only two out of how many? He's a buffoon.

I can accept the angels change, in fact, one of my criticisms in the past was that they were not that scary because you don't really die....you just get sent back in time...those changes to make them more murderous I accept but on top of the constant twiddling with the back and forth stuff...that I can't accept. On top of that, the time spillage seems like...it's not really explained...and it's boring on top of that...a poor story.

I don't hate the idea of DW and I don't hate most of its past. I do hate the show as it is now, now in its WORST season ever, and includes that awful TRIAL OF THE TIME LORD--that was better than these four stories and made more sense, not that that is saying much.

IMO Moffat should be pulled from the show now.

Zombie's picture

I agree that this was a let down after the excellent first part, but to suggest that Moffat should be pulled from the show after all of the ridiculous RTD garbage we had to suffer through the last couple of years is insane.

Dalzo's picture

That buffoon managed to defeat an entire army of Weeping Angels AND close the time spillage (for now) all in one go... Not too bad for a blundering fool. Thank god he makes mistakes (something all his previous incarnations have done at some point or another), if he didn't then he would be that God we talked about in other posts. Making a character have weaknesses is a good thing... I don't understand why that is a problem. Some of the scariest moments in this two parter was when the Doctor says that he made a mistake... Then you know that those around him really are in trouble!!! As for him only saving himself, Amy and River... Not true, the Weeping Angels were going to use the energy to take over the universe... The Doctor saved the universe... Again!!! Once again, not bad for a blabbering idiot!!!

The Amy looking at the Weeping Angel's eyes storyline was totally consistant. She looked into the eyes, the projection of the Angel entered her mind causing her to hallucinate (the dust coming from her eye, her hand turning to stone). All this to slow her and her friends down. Then the angel started to form within her. In order to stop the projection becoming a reality she had to close her eyes. If she had kept them open too long it would have formed (resulting in what... that we don't know exactly). Once the Angels had fallen into the spillage they no longer existed (this is why we had to have the clerics being wiped from time... to give a better example of this) and so, Amy was safe. It isn't too much of a contradiction within the story (although it is from "Blink", this I grant you!). As for Amy falling down and nothing happening, this too, is explained... They really had no interest in her as they were fleeing from the time spillage. Okay, I will grant you the set up for this was a bit of a stunt to get the audiences pulse racing... But is that such a crime? I bet it had a lot of children wetting themselves and screaming at the television for Amy to get up. that's a good thing... no?

The whole time spillage storyline is obviously going to be explained later in the series and will probably be a way of resetting things from RTD's era!

As for this being worse than "The Trial of a Timelord", hmmmm, would like to hear a strong case to support that...

IMO (nah, even seems weak when I use it), Steven Moffat is doing an unbelievable job so far. This has possibly been the strongest start to a season since it came back in 2005, it has been consistant without a weak episode to date (the weakest being "The Beast Below" and even that was good) and I honestly cannot think of anybody else to fill his shoes!!!

Okay how did the Doc stop the time spillage? He was at one point talking about throwing himself into it. Did he just decide to dump the angels in? And how? They were powerful and fast so how did he get the time thing to swallow them and not him, and the two girls, all three of whom are weaker than the statues/angels? So let's see, the eye thing was all a hallcination so it really wasn't in AMy's eye or was it? Was it in her mind or not? Was it real or not? Why did Amy open her eyes and not get killed as the Doc said? Why did the clerics allow Amy to open her eyes? The angel flee at one point from the time thingie, then moments later they're back. What? The clerics were not supposed to leave Amy alone but all of them do, one by one to go off and investigate something that swallowed the others...oh, wait, they TWILIGHT ZONEed forgot about them because time is changing. Right. Amy falls and the things slowly, ever so slowly attack her. I thought they were  "Fast, very fast, the fastest beings in the universe" in BLINK! So how did the Doc stop them AND time spillage?

Add to that we have no answers about River, no answers about the crack, no answers about Amy AND we get a fast one two three punch of I have a wedding ring, a fiance, and I want to %$#^ you on my bed! WHAT? All played with parody-like fashion as if we're in BENNY HILL. Gillian is trying , you can see that but she's a poor actress. The angels are not scary now, they are boring, they are dull, we saw them move, people looked into their eyes in BLINK and lived now you can't do that but wait, Amy lived. The rules keep changing not from story to story but from moment to moment as Moffat sees fit. The Doc just makes it up as he goes along...but does the writer have to?

He says one thing in one place, then changes it in another. "Oh no, Amy, that thing was never inside you at all, dear."  Okay....."I was wrong."  "I made a mistake" and other changes along the way. THey don't make sense, they seem like fake outs and totally annoy me.

I don't care about River, Amy or the time spillage. Next week looks totally poor btw. The scenes to next week are just as silly as this week, maybe more so. I can wait for next week and in fact, I do not care at all about Moffat's version of DW at all and can't wait until he leaves. If not, I probabl won't be watching much if at all. It's too bad, I like DW alot and the ideas often outweight the individual stories but when it came back in 2005 it has emotion, care, concern, good stories, fairly okay arcs that did not overweight the story (as it does now) and gave us action, romance, and adventure, not people sitting around in rooms talking but when they did talk it was about something and with good dialog ("I"m so glad I met you." "Me, too."  "Alien morality.") and interesting chemistry between the leads, care and concern from even the smallest of characters, new ideas for DW and an arc that was not overpowering. We had IT> IT was DW, not perfect but better than before...

NOW however it the worst thing I've ever seen from DW...       

Dalzo's picture

So, I have rewatched both episodes... I actually enjoyed them even more on the second viewing (well, the first part was my fourth time, but as an overall story... It is great!) but I kept your criticisms to mind.

A projection of The Angel entered into Amy's mind. It was this projection that caused Amy to hallucinate the dust coming out of her eye and her hand turning to stone. These were hallucination but the projection of the Angel was not... This was well and truly within her. Amy counting down from ten was her counting down to when the projection of the Angel would take her... Similar to the projection coming out of the televsion. Amy closing her eyes acted in the same way to Amy pausing the recording in episode one. Once the Angels fell into the spillage the projection had never existed so Amy was safe. The reason she remembers it is because she is a time traveller as the Doctor explains afterwards!

There is one element in which you are correct though... which I hadn't spotted when first watching it. The Doctor doesn't actually stop the Angels. It is the Angels draining the power of the Byzantium which causes the artificial gravity to fail and the Angels to fall into the spillage (the spillage doesn't pull them in... It is old fashioned gravity that does the job). The possibility of the gravity failing was mentioned at the top of the episode when Amy wonders what would happen if it did! Does the fact that the Doctor doesn't actually defeat the Angels form the basis of a criticism or spoil the enjoyment of the show. Obviously to you, Chase, it does, however, this is not the first time this has happened. Many Hartnell stories (and classic ones to that) have him hardly getting involved. In the first Dalek story he sabotages a control panel (the result of which we never actually see) and then gets captured, manicled and has to wait for rescue by Ian, Barbara and the Thals. In the Aztecs, the Doctor basically helps Ichtar defeat Ian in a fight, makes cocoa, gets engaged  and builds a pulley... Not exactly heroic stuff but a fantastic story nontheless! In Resurrection of the Daleks, the Doctor doesn't arrive till episode 2 (or episode 3, depending on which version you are watching) and ultimately does very little except chat to Davros and wait for the imperial daleks to come and take him away.

As for Amy falling and the Angels attacking her "slowly". This does seem to contradict what we have seen before. That said, although the Angels were moving they were obviously still in their stone form (remember, when an Angel is not being looked at it is no longer stone) maybe they CAN slowly move when stone, albeit slowly. Maybe, because Amy had fallen down they were beginning to twig that Amy had her eyes shut and were tentatively reaching out to get her. Or, as there were Angels all around her, they had to stay quantum locked to avoid looking at each other and suffering the same fate as the four in Blink. These are just the theories of a fan but to be honest with you. There is no real need to explain it as that scene is extremely tense and very well done. If I had to choose between Steven Moffat remaining rigidly consistant and not having that scene, or being flexible and having a classic scene... Well, I know which I would choose! The fact is, in "Blink" we didn't know all about the Angels and I would suggest that there are still things we don't know. Those mysteries (which we will probably never know) may explain these problems.

As for explanations for River Song (who is obviously coming back at the end of the season), the crack in the wall and Amy... These will all be forthcoming. In fact, it seems clear that we will be returning to this episode. I hadn't picked up on it till hearing the live podcast but the Doctor who asks Amy to remember what he said to her when she was 7 was obviously a Doctor from the future as he is wearing his jacket. The Doctor from this episode had lost his jacket and went off with River and Octavian. It could be a mistake but the pause before he puts his hand on her face and speaks to her (a beautiful scene, by the way) and the fact it was shot so close as to not make it too obvious that he is wearing his jacket implies that we are not done with this episode... It is vital to the end of the season.

I have nothing to add from my last post about the last scene. I think it was funny (it was meant to be) and well played and totally within character!

To sum up on my views regarding this episode (and all Doctor Who) as I can't face writing any more about "Flesh and Stone" is that sure, if you want to pick holes in it, those holes are there and you can. But Doctor Who is not about that. This two part adventure was exciting, tense and funny in parts. It pushes along the overall story of the season with aplomb. Matt Smith and Karen Gillan put in their finest performances to date (which is amazing considering this was the first they shot) and the dialogue, from scene to scene was astonishingly good and highly quotable. Us fans can nit-pick but I would hazard the guess that the average familes out there who will only watch the episode once will have loved it. That's the most important thing. I have read several reviews from various newspapers and professional reviewers and I have yet to read a single negative one. The fact that nearly every fan on the live podcast and the vast majority of us die hard fans commenting on this very site also loved it (81% gave it a 4 or a 5... I gave it 4), as well as the vast majority of people on DWO (86% gave it a 4 or a 5 out of 270 members). This is a clear indication that Steven Moffat is doing everything right. You can't please all the people all the time but whatever you say, Steven Moffat seems to be pleasing NEARLY all the people every week! Long may he continue to do so...

kylemj6977's picture

I've given it five episodes - but I just don't think I like the new "feel" of Doctor Who.  I like Matt Smith - while I still VERY MUCH miss David T. - and I even like Amy.  I just am not getting the stories and the new direction.  Has anyone noticed that a lot of the scenes are focus on blue and blueish-grey colors (sorta like CSI: NY)?  The new TARDIS looks like a child's toy and I am not really feeling it.  I think what they should have done was one or two things to carry from one version of the show to the other - there should have been a companion to go from 10th to 11th Doctor OR Matt Smith should have been traveling at least a few episodes in the 9th/10th Doctor TARDIS.  Plus, this "mystery" of River with her "killing the greatest man she's ever known". . . . don't like.  I am not one to normally write a negative review and will give it time still - just not feeling connected to it like I did even with 9th Doctor.  Just a different feeling show.  I think it is Moffat and not Matt that is causing me to feel like this. FrownCryCryFrownUndecided

Kyle Jones

As an astute member of the Doctor Who group on reddit pointed out, Amy receives a visit from the Doctor of episodes to come in Flesh & Stone!

The Flesh & Stone Doctor leaves Amy with her eyes closed as he, River and Octavian head off to reach the primary control room. A Doctor from a future episode takes Amy's hands and asks her to remember something before departing. Something he is yet to tell her? He hasn't rewritten this part of her timeline yet. Another Moffatism seems to be the Doctor jumping around people's own chronologies eg. River Song.

The clue was the jacket. Oh, and we now know the TARDIS can make a silent entrance thanks to River. So...speculations, anyone?

Amy is visited by a future 11th Doctor? WHAT????? WHen'd that happen? Another piece of junk story "twist" story telling by Moffat.

daveac's picture

Both Mike Rand alThor and myself talk about that (a second 'time displaced' Doctor) on the last two episodes of The Cultdom Collective Podcast.

Also the fact of the TARDIS possibly revisting the young Amy in what first appeared to be a dream of older Amy as see hears the TARDIS arrive back in her garden.

Cheers, daveac

Linquel's picture

So I haven't watched Flesh and Stone yet. I'm having some home network problems which are irritating. So instead, I popped on my DVD and watched the Silence of the Library/Forest of the Dead two-parter where River Song is introduced. I have to admit, I had completely forgotten that she died at the end, so other than her "I'm going to be a professor" line in part 1 it really didn't sink in that this was the doctor meeting River Song for the second time but it being an earlier meeting in her time-line. Which only confuses the shit out of me more. :) Because in SofL/FotD, she seems to be meeting the Doctor outside of their relationship for the first time. But she did meet him before they met in her timeline. "Oh, no. I've gone crosseyed."

Anyway, I hope to watch part 2 tomorrow. I have to say, after watching the first River Song story and thinking back on part 1 of the Weeping Angels story, River seems really different. I liked Professor River Song a lot. I'm not sure if I like spy/crook River Song as much. I might have to re-watch part 1 before I watch part 2. And also, rewatching the Library two-parter made me really miss Donna. She really is my favorite of the new companions. I'll come back tomorrow to read everybody's posts and make a new post myself.

Troy Baker's picture

Overall - not a bad episode ...

... but I have a few quibbles with it.


My first is I would like a better explaination of how the gravity bubble (the thing the Doctor shot at) inverted the gravity in the area. It's pretty close to what I predicted would happen but there was no explaination as to how it worked.

Next, River Song's past - who did she kill to be used like that. Obviously she was doing this job in an effort to redeem herself and gain her freedom, but who is this "very good man' she killed? When she was in "Silence in the Library / Forest of the Dead" was she still trying to work her way to freedom or had she earned it by then?

O.K. - the Angels, we know that they were weak from being there for hundreds of years but, when they are as fast as they are, why can't they still catch the others -  well, they did get everbody except those who went into the crack, The Doctor, Amy and River Song. I understand them not existing after falling into the crack, so if they didn't exist Amy's "infection" didn't exist either. But this seems to be another 'throwaway' line with no real explaination.

Octavian - I didn't really feel much about him. He was just there, as far as I'm concerned. As a result, when he died I did feel sorry for him going as a person but, I didn't feel anything for him - I just didn't connect to him.

Amy - what was she counting down to and why did it stop when she closed her eyes? Again we're just given 'throwaway' lines with no real explaination. The 'blind' scenes reminded me of "The Brain of Morbius" and Sarah Jane's attempted escape from Professor Solon's labratory.

THE CRACK -  finally an explaination is given as to what it is, but why is it linked to Amy's time? The Doctor and Amy can go around and close all these cracks throughout time and space but until they find out what caused it, it looks like there will be more of them to close.Are they going to have to backtrack and check all the places they have been to check for the others. The date the Doctor gets on River Song's computer gives us more information - 26 06 201? gives us a date for the event that started the cracks. Obviously the last number in the date is kept secret to keep the mystery about Amy's age secret as well.

tarashnat's picture

The reason you are all getting different reads on Amy Pond is because someone is messing with her timeline. Notice how now Amy keeps saying "Explain". This is just like the Dalek Supreme saying "Explain" in Victory of the Daleks. Also, in Victory of the Daleks, the lights in the Dalek ship are the same design as the light Prisoner Zero emerges from in the hospital in The Eleventh Hour.

Also, back in Victory of the Daleks, Amy says "Hey, Paisley, you ever fancied someone you shouldn't?" Well, this presages Amy's reaction at the end of Flesh and Stone. And what warm-blooded young woman can not interpret the following line from this episode, "A forest in a bottle on a spaceship in a maze. Have I impressed you yet, Amy Pond?" as anything but a chat up/pick up line? All the signs are there.

One thing that I have noticed this series so far is that Steven Moffat is reusing elements from all his prior Doctor Who work. And I think the most important one is that insignificant short story from Decalog 3 called Continuity Errors and Curse of a Fatal Death which are all about going back in time and changing events. Even with the in-jokes of dining with the architect and the comfy chairs which references the sofa of reasonable comfort.

Have we done the crash of the Byzantium yet?

DWNY a New York City based Doctor Who meet up group.

Something no-one seems to have picked up on...who was that James Bond-esque character at the very beginning who was after River? I have a funny feeling we'll be seeing him again!

Paul S. Mabley B.Sc.(Hons), MA

South Shields, UK / Kitchener, Ontario

so boring?

Idiom's picture

What like your constant posting the same thing, you mean? Blah blah blah. say what you want then say something different. Why waste our time with unintelligent comments? Say something interesting or funny or new, not just the same dirge again and again. That is truly boring.

I've sat back long enough but can take no more of him.  His latest 2 quick hate-comments add nothing to what he's already said before.  He's an internet troll, plain and simple.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Not a typical troll that just comes and delivers one-liners to solely enrage the membership...I think he did at one time like DW.  But I really don't care if DW ripped off some sci-fi series from the 1950s or if some obscure series from the 1970s is so much better and Moffat could learn a thing or 2 from it!  For whatever reason, the series revival has not been to his liking, and he cannot deal with the fact that others love what he so much hates.  I admit I feel the same sometimes.  For example, I cannot stand Love + Monsters, yet there are some who think the story is genius.  But the difference is that I have come to accept the fact that sometimes other like what I do not.  Chase does not get this concept.  If he hates it, then so must everybody else.

That being said, just because I don't agree with what he says I don't know that I'd support banning him from the site.  He certainly has his right to an opinion like everyone else, no matter how unpopular it may be.  An ignore button would certainly be a big improvement here, but it'd only just save you the hassle of skipping over his posts, which I do regularly anyway.  If you've read one, you've read them all.  They all basically go something like this:  "RTD bad.  Moffat becoming worse.  Latest story is crap.  Doctor 10/11 acting gone downhill.  Companion-of-the-day is awful. Why can't DW be more like {{insert obscure sci-fi series here}}? DW sucks.  But I don't hate DW...I really like it."

DIE DW DIE???  Are you seriously for real?  This proves beyond any reasonable, shadow of a doubt, that you are no fan of the show.  Sometimes I really don't like a particular story, but I would never tell DW to die in a million years.  Having said this, there is no conceivable or semi-remotely logical reason that you would want to stick around on this site anymore.  Any therapist would tell you to get out of this abusive relationship, as it clearly does you way more harm than good. 

The best thing to do, like all other trolls, is to ignore him.  The trolls crave attention, and I think Chase has embraced the negative attention he gets and enjoys being the "bad guy" of the site.  Read his posts if you want, just don't comment on them, don't reply to them...just don't do anything.  Then he'll simply go away.

Die DW Die?  It should be, Leave Chase Leave!

Troy Baker's picture

When it comes to negative posting (as opposed to constructive critisism) I think about what my grandma used to say...

"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".Smile

Dalzo's picture

These last couple of weeks I have been the most guilty of engaging with Chase. Part of the reason for this was because whenever I read his posts I can't help but believe that he thinks he is being very clever and smart and is the font of all knowledge when it comes to judging Doctor Who (regardless of how many "IMO's" he puts into his posts), when, in fact, his reviews are terribly written and badly constructed (although I admit, mine aren't much better... I use too many brackets, for one thing). I felt that a rebuttal of his arguments was necessary. I also felt genuinely sorry for him. I love Doctor Who (maybe a little more than is healthy!) and I would be gutted if I was as disillusioned by it as he appears to be.

That said, his last two posts do show that he really is here to try and spoil our fun, they offered nothing but a couple of lines of pure spite, so I am in agreement with you. I will not be responding to his posts in the future. Let him hate the show (as it stands now) and may the rest of us have an engaging, sensible and most importantly, FUN time discussing our views (good or bad) for the rest of this season! Doctor Who is all about fun, after all!!!

Dr. Solar's picture

did they ever explain why they all look like angel statues?

i know the angels that did originally to blend in on earth,

but why do they all look like angel statues still?

Man Of The Atom

I'm really enjoying this season. Matt and Karen are fantastic! This 2-parter was pretty darn good.

I had to rewatch part of Flesh and Stone on ABC iView to understand the future 11th Doctor scene. Can't believe I didn't notice!

Two things I did notice, both of them courtesy of Angel Bob's dialogue:

"It's hard to put it into your terms Doctor Song..."

"The Doctor and the TARDIS hasn't noticed."

Either Angel Bob isn't good with grammar or the curious phrasing is intentional. I don't see how River can kill the Doctor (unless it's the 13th incarnation or the Doctor is going to change his future). And does River have something to do with Doctor-Donna?  Too many theories, but the mystery just makes Doctor Who even better.

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